Seth Roberts’ Shangri-La Diet in detail
Seth Roberts (pictured below right) is an associate professor in the Psychology Department at the University of California, Berkeley. He is known as a promoter of the technique of self experimentaton to generate hypotheses and to test the hypotheses generated — in other words, he uses himself as a human guinea pig. One of the things that Roberts has developed using this technique is a weight loss system that he dubs the Shangri-La Diet. Although Roberts says that friends and acquaintances have used the Shangri-La Diet successfully, in the end it comes down to one guy doing something that he thinks caused and helped maintain weight loss.
Because of the intense interest generated by a news item in the CalorieLab Calorie Counter News that briefly mentioned the Shangri-La Diet, we have read read all available information on the diet in order to revisit it here in more detail. Roberts has set forth varying versions of the diet, and some of his explanations are not entirely clear to us, so this summary may not be completely accurate. Roberts wants to publish his findings in a diet book and has decided to limit further public explanations of the diet for now, pending publication of the book.
Disclaimer: We are not recommending this diet. On the face if it, if you had to cook up the ultimate stereotype of a wacky fad diet for use in a comedic novel or film, the Shangri-La Diet would fill the bill. While we’re not necessarily saying it won’t work, the one-man lab rat nature of its development is far from proof of its effectiveness. And it suffers from the key flaw of most fad diets, in requiring a lifetime of somewhat unnatural behavior (e.g., calorie restriction) that, even if you yourself can maintain, will eventually drive the people around you crazy. On the other hand, if you are on the verge of deciding to undergo bariatric surgery, it might be worth a try before permanently modifying your body.
The theory in a nutshell
Set point: Roberts believes in a “set point” theory of weight control: at any given time, your body wants to be a certain weight, and it will increase or decrease feelings of hunger and its metabolic rate in order to achieve that weight. Any attempt to modify your weight away from your current set point will meet with failure, or at least will be very difficult to achieve and maintain. Roberts compares the set point to the temperature setting for a thermostat.
Taste-calorie association: The set point idea is not new, but Roberts extends it by claiming that the set point can be modified by diet. This is the second part of his theory: the “taste-calorie association.” Roberts believes that the “tastiness” of the food you consume controls your set point. Specifically, tastier food raises your set point (i.e., makes your body want to get fatter), while bland food lowers your set point (i.e., makes your body want to adapt to being leaner).
CalorieLab also has an extended interview with Dr. Roberts,
a review of the book by early adopter Stephen Marsh.
and cartoonist Erik Sansom’s take in a comic book format
Roberts feels that our metabolic system evolved during a period (the Stone Age) when mankind was subject to alternating periods of low food availability and high food availability (famine and feasting). When food was not available, the body’s metabolism throttled itself back and lowered its set point to a lower weight and a more efficient metabolism with less hunger. When food was once again available in large amounts, the set point rose, hunger increased, people gorged and fattened up in preparation for the next period of scarcity.
(Roberts has also concocted a behavioral psychology explanation for why the diet works, which we’ll skip — we suspect he cooked it up as an afterthought to justify his development of a weight loss program while being employed as a psychology professor.)
Order The Shangri-La Diet
(Amazon.ca link)
How Shangri-La Works
The trick of the Shangri-La Diet is to break the taste-calorie association so that the set point is lowered.
Apparently Roberts believes that under normal circumstances the body will sense a food’s taste, and within a very short time thereafter sense the input of energy from calories, and will then adjust its metabolism to encourage more intake of the taste that brought the calories. By breaking the close temporal link between the sensation of taste and the delivery of caloric energy, the body will no longer crave more calories just because of a particular taste — in fact, it will crave less food because the delivery of calories came without a connection to taste. Or something like that.
Three ways to disassociate: Roberts experimented with various ways to disassociate calories from taste which fall into the following categories:
- Consume calories that have little or no taste
- Consume calories that have an unfamiliar taste
- Consume foods that contain calories that are only detected by the body after a delay (in order to disassociate the initial taste from the later calorie hit)
Addressing the second technique first, Roberts (pictured right) had a certain amount of weight loss success by consuming calories with unfamiliar tastes. Specifically, on a trip to France he drank exotic sugary soft drinks that he had never tasted before, and lost weight as a result. Roberts’ explanation: the odd taste had not been recognized by the body as being associated with calorie/energy input. This technique has practical limitations, since you’d soon run out of new flavors to consume (or your travel expenses would drive you into bankruptcy).
As for the third technique, Roberts had a certain amount of success when he ate so-called low glycemic index foods — foods whose carbohydrates are absorbed through the small intestine and converted to blood sugar at a much slower rate than high glycemic foods.
Strategic consumption of bland calories: The first technique is the one that showed the greatest, longest lasting success. At first Roberts tried eating non-processed foods, on the theory that processing of foods results in more taste, or more intense tastes, through the addition of salt, spices, concentrated fats, and sugars. By eating unprocessed, blander foods, Roberts was able to lose weight. A second experiment involved drinking large amounts of the ultimate tasteless substance, water (from 3 to 5 liters per day), which also resulted in some weight loss.
But he still wasn’t satisfied.
If unprocessed foods were less tasty than processed foods, was there something even less tasty than unprocessed foods that might do the trick? And was there some way to use the knowledge about the taste-calorie association to trick the body into lowering the set point, without condemning yourself to eating tasteless gruel for the rest of your life?
Shangri-La finally achieved
What Roberts finally came up with, and what is the current basis of his Shangri-La Diet, is the taking of a small amount of your daily calories between meals in tasteless doses in one of the following ways:
- Drinking a small amount of tasteless oil (such as canola oil or very light olive oil)
- Drinking a small amount of sugar diluted in water (such as fructose or sucrose)
- Swallowing a raw egg very quickly (apparently still undergoing testing)
(Please note: raw eggs can be a infected with salmonella, which can make you sick, or in rare cases can be fatal, espcially to infants, fetuses, the elderly, and those with immune system disorders.)
Leaving the raw egg method aside, exactly when, in what form, and how much oil or sugar do you consume? As for when, the oil or sugar should be taken between meals, no closer than one hour to any eating or drinking (other than water), to insure that the body doesn’t associate it with meals. As for the amount, Roberts seems to recommend about 150 to 300 calories worth per day, the higher amount during the weight loss phase, and the lower amount during the maintenance phase, which lasts your whole life. Here are more specific recommendations:
- Oil: About one to two tablespoons of oil per day, perhaps half in mid morning or half in mid afternoon (or perhaps in three doses). A tablespoon of oil contains about 120 calories; 2 tablespoons contain about 240 calories and is equivalent to a fluid ounce, or about 30 milliliters of oil.
- Sugar: Roberts at one point states he was taking about 3 ounces (6 tablespoons/18 teaspoons/90 milliliters/75 grams) of fructose (equivalent to 275 calories) diluted in one liter of water. For maintenance he seems to take half this amount. He later switched to sucrose — the type of sugar, as well as the dilution, doesn’t seem to matter, as long as the end result is essentially “tasteless.”
Note: Although sugar diluted using the measurements specified above is reported to still be distinctly sweet, in Dr. Roberts’s system it seems that pure sweetness, without any other flavor elements, does not count as being “tasty.” On the other hand, sweeteners such as honey, brown sugar, and maple syrup would have other flavors besides pure sweetness, disqualilfying them from being used in Dr. Roberts’s system.
Maintenance = calorie restriction
After reaching his goal weight, Roberts has maintained his weight by decreasing his “dose” to about 150 calories — Roberts claims that he was becoming unhealthily skinny at the full dose.
The Shangri-La Diet has so changed (screwed up? made go haywire?) his metabolic rate that his maintenance diet consists of 1,200 calories per day, which he gets as follows:
- One normal meal (about 900 calories)
- Two pieces of fruit (about 75 calories apiece)
- Sugar water (150 calories)
(It seems like two small meals of 400 to 500 calories would also work in place of Seth’s “normal” meal.)
So in effect, the Shangri-La Diet requires Roberts to be on a lifetime calorie restriction regimen, but it wipes out his appetite to such an extent that he doesn’t feel deprived.
So there you have it — at least until the diet book comes out. (Readers can make do with James Hilton’s novel about Shangri-La while they’re waiting for Seth Roberts to publish.)
Not part of Roberts’ Shangri-La Diet, but related to diet is his cure for insomnia, which involves, among other things, skipping breakfast. Note that most experts recommend eating breakfast for weight loss, weight maintenance, and better mental performance.
Update (October 13, 2005):
Why “Shangri-La”? Global Province asked Dr. Roberts, who responded, “Because it puts people at peace with food — like being in Shangri-La, a peaceful place. It reduces or eliminates food compulsions, such as eating between meals and eating late at night. It is also a kind of ideal diet, just as Shangri-La was a kind of ideal place.”
Update 2 (November 15, 2005):
Seth Roberts and Freakonomics co-author Stephen Dubner appeared on ABC’s Good Morning America show and discussed the Shangri-La Diet. Dr. Roberts said that the diet suppresses a basic caveman instinct to eat when access to food is intermittent.
“I take one tablespoon a day of extra light olive oil*,” said Dr. Roberts. “That’s for me. For other people it could be different. And when I’m in a cafe, I have a cup of hot sugar water.”
“It isn’t really a fad diet,” said Stephen Dubner. “It’s more about understanding the theory behind eating. It’s not about denying things. It ultimately leads to lessening the amount you eat. In effect, by taking this canola oil and this sugar water, you’re tricking your metabolism. This is an incredibly simple and elegant way of understanding what appetite is about, The novelty of this is trying to persuade you to be more disciplined and tricking the system.”
Host Dianne Sawyer swallowed a spoonful of tasteless oil during the segment.
Seth Roberts’ upcoming book, The Shangri-La Diet
(*The ABC News web site article says that Dr. Roberts uses extra virgin olive oil, but a commenter here who had recorded the show reviewed it and confirmed that he actually said “extra light olive oil.”)
Update 3 (February 3, 2006):
Amazon.com has added the publisher’s description for the upcoming book on the Shangri-La Diet:
Book Description
Psychologist and professor Seth Roberts has spent years analyzing why most diets don’t work. A maverick with a curious mind, and a yen for self-experimentation, he started by asking a simple question most experts haven’t tackled: What makes us feel hungry in the first place?
After scouring the scientific literature and tirelessly testing various theories and practices, Roberts hit upon a simple, effective strategy for controlling the body’s internal “set point”- that is, the thermostat that controls weight gain or loss. The solution was counterintuitive: By taking two daily servings of either extra-light olive oil or plain sugar water, he took control of his appetite, with astonishing results. Roberts lost thirty-five pounds in only three months, and he has kept it off for five years. Since then, others have replicated these results, and formal clinical trials will soon be under way.
With the publication of this unique and groundbreaking book, Seth Roberts’s program will be available to anyone who wants to lose weight-a little or a lot-and keep it off. The Shangri-La Diet includes specific instructions for tailoring the program for individual needs and goals, as well as expert tips, variations, success stories, and an illuminating explanation of how Roberts devised the diet and why it works so well.
A diet program simple enough for anyone to try, The Shangri-La Diet has the potential to radically change the way we think about weight loss-and deliver remarkably easy, sustainable results.
About the Author
Seth Roberts, Ph.D., is a tenured professor of psychology at the University of California at Berkeley. He serves on the editorial advisory board of the scientific journal Nutrition, and has published dozens of scientific articles on topics that include health, nutrition, and weight control. Articles about his work have appeared in The New York Times, Harper’s, and such major scientific journals as Science and Behavioral and Brain Sciences. His second book, The Science of One, will be published by the Penguin Press in 2008.
Update 4 (March 17, 2006):
Shangri-La Dieter Stephen Marsh reviews The Shangri-La Diet book for CalorieLab Calorie Counter News, and CalorieLab interviews Dr. Seth Roberts.
Update 5 (May 11, 2006):
If all this has been too hard for you to understand, check out cartoonist Erik Sansom’s Shangri-La-De-Da Diet cartoon.
Update 6 (July 20, 2006):
Bloggers who would like to try the Shangri-La Diet can receive a free copy of the book.
The publisher tells us that they will send a review copy of The Shangri-La Diet to the first 15 bloggers who are interested in reviewing it. Please send an email with the URL of your blog and your mailing address to:
Katherine.Wasilewski (at) us.penguingroup.com
with the subject line “CalorieLab Review Copy.”
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You say the diet has made Seth’s metabolism go haywire because he lives on 1,200 net calories per day. This can’t be blamed on his specific dietary approach; it’s a common plight of formerly obese people.
A typical caloric allowance following weight loss surgery is 900–1,000 calories per day, and Seth did not have that much weight to lose, so he’s a little better off. To me (not an expert) it’s not at all clear why this is the case but it certainly could have something to do with the set point.
Bonnie,
I am familiar with the hypothesis that the reduced obese (formerly obese) have permanently more efficient metabolisms than the never obese. However, this is far from an established fact. Although there are some studies that have seemed to show this and some researchers who believe it, the the following presentation slide represents the mainstream view at this point:
You can Google for “reduced obese” and words like “metabolic rate,” “energy expediture,” etc. to pull up more scientific opinion on this.
This turns out to be an extremely difficult thing to study, because it is very difficult to keep accurate track of calorie intake and expediture. Expediture is hard to measure, and for calorie intake you pretty much have to lock people up to prevent cheating — and they still cheat, their loved ones smuggle food in for them (see our article on John Keitz, who within the space of a few short months gained over 100 pounds despite being unable to walk and being confined to a medically supervised care facility for the obese on a restricted calorie regimen).
Moreover, even if you really could lock people up under guard (but even prison guards smuggle drugs in for prisoners, don’t they?), the difference in metabolic rate that is claimed by the pro-reduced-metabolic-rate researchers is only in the range of 5–20%. So, in other words, a never-obese man whose normal daily metabolism might be 2,500 calories would, even according to the reduced-obese-reduced-metabolism believers, require somewhere between 2,000 and 2,375 calories per day, not 1,200.
The reduced-obese-reduced-metabolism theory is one of those areas where there may be a grain of truth, but the grain of truth ends up being massively exagerated once it hits the diet books, the diet gurus, and the online weight loss and fat acceptance discussion forums.
Update (September 29, 2005):
It slipped my mind that we had previously reported on attempts to end-run the cheating dieters problem by measuring metabolic change with tests on rats. From the New York Times article that we referenced:
“… and will then adjust its metabolism to encourage more intake of the taste that brought the calories.”
Does Dr. Roberts believe his diet increases metabolism? Or just that it reduces appetite?
I think he is saying that the “lower setpoint” affects appetite — i.e., the body expects famine, and so appetite is reduced. Over the long term, once the weight is lost, metabolism is actually reduced (hence, his lower calorie needs today).
Am I misunderstanding?
This is actually quite important for those of us who currently eat fairly low calorie but would still like to lose weight. For example, can a woman who weights 120 pounds and eats 1,200 or so calories per day just consume 300 calories from the sugar water, and 900 otherwise, and expect to lose weight? Or does his diet only work if one cuts calories (through reduced appetite)? I don’t know if one can get proper nutrition on much less than that per day …
Any help making sense of this would be appreciated.
query,
A woman who only weighs 120 probably doesn’t need to lose weight, unless she’s under 5 feet high. But that aside, 1,200 is still very low. At 11 calories per pound, a resting metabolism of 1,320 would be average. And on top of that, unless the woman were bedridden, there would be several hundred calories expended for activity during the day. So the hypothetical 120-pound woman whose maintanance intake is 1,200 calories would have a very unusual metabolism already.
As for what Dr. Roberts believes, I’d have to go back into all his papers again to try to answer, but if I’m not mistaken, the set point theory as put forth by others prior to Dr. Roberts holds that both hunger will decrease and metabolism will increase … leptin has been put forth as a substance that can have both of these effects.
If you just consumed the sugar water, but forced yourself to eat the full amount you normally do (for nutrition purposes), would your metabolism increase, causing you to lose weight? — Good question, which depends on (1) what Dr. Roberts believes, and (2) whether what he believes is correct.
I am two weeks into the oil diet — four tablespoons of canola oil twice a day, an hour away from any food with taste. I have lost three pounds. Was 168 lbs, 5′11″, 68 years old, about 12 miles a week of brisk walking. Appetite much suppressed. Not much determination required to take small helpings. Eating is oddly optional after a very small meal. Notable: all the reasons for eating that have nothing to do with hunger: boredom, a mildly low mood, social pleasure, the joy of the food itself in the mouth … Have to give much of this up, but not all. Oil morning and afternoon appears a little better than afternoon and evening. Bad knees — getting the weight down for the knees. I tolerate the tasteless oil pretty well.
Paul,
A couple observations:
(1) At 168 and 5-11, it doesn’t seem like you’d need to lose weight. Has your doctor said that it would help your knees?
(2) 4 tablespoons of oil is about 480 calories. That’s an awful lot of non-nutrative calories to be taking (especially if it’s making you cut back on other food). Cutting that in half might be a good idea, and closer to what Dr. Roberts seems to recommend.
I think your observation about hunger pretty much says it all: I don’t think obese people eat because they are hungry in the sense of “my body is crying out for fuel”; they eat for the other reasons you listed. Therefore a system like Roberts that supposedly supresses actual gimme-energy hunger is not going to work long term, once the intitial excitement of trying a new diet wears off.
For me, at least, overeating is a combination of both hunger and non-hunger factors. I certainly eat many times when I don’t have any rumbly-in-my-tummy reason to — boredom, social reasons, I like food, et al. — but I also constantly (and heavily) snack at 5:15 every evening, simply because I’m starving and supper’s at least an hour away. (And probably habit, at least at this point.)
So. Having seen this on the Freakonomics blog, I’m giving it a go starting today — the first intentional diet I’ve been on in years. I would have started sooner, but I had a difficult time parsing exactly what was involved in Seth’s method. (Thank you, CalorieLab!) I’m probably a better candidate than Paul, simply because I have more to lose (6′0″, 255 lb. at 28 y.o.), but we’ll see what happens.
I am 54, 5″8″ post-menopausal at 146 lbs. I have been on this program for 10 days and have lost 4 pounds. I have been on a carb addicts plan (2 small protein-rich meals with carbs allowed only for 1 hour a day as part of a balanced larger meal) for 5 years and have maintained a 20-lb loss over that time. I am delighted with the current cut in appetite. My concern has to do with blood lipid levels which the ingestion of this much additional fat (albeit mono-unsaturated) may affect. Any comments? Thanks.
From this document on Seth Gordon’s site (although it isn’t linked to from his publications page):
One of the graphs in this document:
I’m confused by the idea of “tasteless.” If I understand correctly, the sugar variant of the diet requires 3 to 6 tablespoons of table sugar (of course, that is because I think there are 45 calories in a tablespoon, but I could be wrong) in one liter of water, to be drunk in two doses.
But the resulting mixture is bound to taste, well, like sugar, isn’t it? How can that be tasteless?
I suppose “tasteless” is relative. Roberts specifically mentions, for instance, that honey and extra virgin olive oil are not good choices. Sucrose or fructose are relatively bland compared to honey.
This “revolutionary” idea seems to be just a cheaper version of Slim-Fast.
Neither Seth nor anyone who’s written about him has clearly explained the set point and how exactly it’s being affected by the tasteless calories.
Query,
The diet only works if it causes you to cut calorie consumption. I tried doing the diet a while back, failed to cut overall calorie consumption and gained weight — about a pound a week until I I gave up.
When I brought up my experience on the Freakonomics board (where Seth was guest-blogging at the time) the consensus of Seth’s fans was that I needed to try more sugar water to make it work — my fructose consumption had been on the low end of Seth’s currently recommended levels.
Seth’s friend Tim Beneke has been raving about his success all over the web — you can read his 100-pound loss story in the comments section of this blog post.
Calorielab:
As for the metabolism thing, here’s a pro-Seth interpretation: maybe you’ve got cause and effect reversed.
That is to say: if Seth had a really low metabolism to begin with, that could cause him to have lifelong weight issues, which could cause him to invent wacky fad diets. In which case the dieting and careful attention to calorie consumption /revealed/ his low metabolism, it didn’t cause it.
I am interested in trying this. Does it work if you use either the oil snack or the sweet water snack interchangeably, as the mood hits? In what form can one buy fructose or sucrose? Can you translate the measurements into standard cooking units of table sugar?
If I am a 5′ woman weighing 125 pounds, is Dr. Robert’s oil dosage correct for me? Should I start with two tablespoons twice a day?
Comment on Calorielab comments from September 27:
Thanks for your comments. I learned from them, and am more aware of the challenges. Responding to three specific points:
1. An orthopedist friend said weight is very important and I should lose weight — my knees are arthritic now. Other docs have told older friends of normal weight the same thing.
2. Too much oil — I will cut back.
3. By Calorielab: “I don’t think obese people eat because they are hungry in the sense of ‘my body is crying out for fuel’; they eat for the other reasons you listed. Therefore a theory/method such as Roberts that supposedly supresses actual gimme-energy hunger is not going to work long term, once the intitial excitement of trying a new diet wears off.”
My comment: Separating, through this diet, gimme-energy hunger from the other motivations to eat has been instructive. The other motivations are much clearer, and the challenge to control them is clearer. In addition, they are easier to control because the gimme-energy hunger is supressed. I suspect that for many people the gimme-energy hunger added to the other motivations was too much, and suppressing the gimme-energy hunger will allow space for them/us to control the other motivations for eating.
So perhaps for some people the diet will work long term. Your curiosity might be more appropriate than your despair.
I have been using the “Shangri-la” diet now for almost a month, and it works beautifully. It has removed my cravings and registers a full stomach whenever I eat. Who cares why? I am losing weight. Thank-you Seth Roberts!
Lauren,
We added more detail to the dosage description for sugar in the article. Specifically, 3 fluid ounces is the same as 6 tablespoons or 18 teaspoons. Consulting CalorieLab’s calorie counter for granulated table sugar (sucrose), we can see that a cup (8 ounces) weighs 200 grams, so 3 ounces by weight would be 75 grams; 3 fluid ounces would be a little less, approximately 67 grams (we’re not sure which kind of ounce Roberts intended, but the two are close enough that it probably doesn’t matter).
There’s no exact amount, so you just have to start somewhere and experiment. Since Seth Roberts only experimented on himself (and got data from a couple male friends who tried it), there hasn’t been any information on the proper dosage for women or people of smaller body weight.
And, of course, remember: the whole diet may be nonsense and not work.
Have been doing this for 3 weeks. Was eating salads for lunch, spinach with veggies and feta cheese. Was using balsamic vinegar on the feta and noticed I wanted more and more feta each time (taste calorie association). Cut out the balsamic and desire for feta dropped. Have lost 11 pounds and it’s been easy.
To your point on eating for boredom (other reasons) when you take the fructose as I do (215 lbs now and use about 4 tbsp in 1 liter H2O in the morning and 4 tbsp in 1 liter H2O in the afternoon, it gives me a feeling of such satiation that it seems to actually discourage any thoughts of eating out of boredom. And I was a big snacker!
I think even eating out of boredom has some small hunger element to it, and in fact snack food and many processed foods are geared to make you want to eat more.
Here’s something to chew on …
At some processed food company right now, they’re freaking out (no pun intended) at Seth’s work and hoping it doesn’t get around too much.
At some point in the future they’re going to open up the document vault in that processed food company only to find out they knew all along what Seth discovered following his experiment.
It will be discovered that they knowingly used it to profit from by raising the weight set points of hundreds of millions of American’s, basically fattening them up for the proverbial slaughter of a hundred health problems.
And when people act on this and eat less processed food, we’ll be amazed at how much “eating out of boredom” diminishes.
David Zemanek
I just have to say it works. I tried it for 2 weeks, and I mean weekdays only since I’m more organised then than the weekends. I have lost my extra fat around the waist I had after having 3 kids. I was not overweight at 5′5″ and 124 pounds but wanted a leaner middle and now I’m 90% close to having it.
Thanks
I’ve been trying to figure out what the heck has been going on with my weight fluctuations for the past couple of years. I’m 25 years old, 5′3″ and my weight fluctuates between 118–128 lbs.
I was on a strict, 1,200 calore diet (mainly low-glycemic) all summer while I was walking about 2 hours a day (I’m not lying), doing some weights and cardio about 30 minutes a day, five days a week (on top of the walking). I believe my metabolism completely caved-in, since I actually gained weight on this regime … despite what scientists say about metabolism slowing after a stretch of low-caloric dieting. It could be a psychological thing … which I believe is highly possible. (I’d love to hear about Robert’s psychological piece of the shangri-la diet.)
Anyway, in the past month, I’ve cut my workouts down to 30 minutes of cardio four times a week and weights three times a week. Walking is the same (I gotta get to work!). I’ve increased my caloric intake to … actually, I don’t really know, I’ve stopped counting … and pretty much eat what tastes good. My trick, though, is when I know I’m going to eat something that tastes good (i.e. is high in calories), my brain doesn’t want to eat excess calories that day. I have no appetite on days when I know I’m having pizza for dinner, for example. If I tell myself that a bag of caramel popcorn is my dinner, my appetite shuts down after lunch and the popcorn satisfies me completely until bedtime.
I think this fits in nicely with the Shangri-La theory. (Don’t you?)
I’m going to try the oil thing just so I can eat more balanced meals (caramel popcorn for dinner isn’t exactly that great for me).
How does this plan work for diabetics?
In all I have read there is no mention of this.
I am very interested in this “diet.” My question is, do you just take 2 tablespoons of oil as well as the sugar water, or do you do either one?
Can you give me an example of what a day’s meals would look like, including the oil and sugar water?
To Lisa Says –
Couldn’t this just be muscle? When I work I out I don’t lose weight. I gain muscle and slim in shape while staying same weight.
I’m very interested but still somewhat confused —
What is the ratio of sugar to water per serving? (? TB sugar to ? oz of water) — and how many times a day should we drink the sugar water as well as how many times a day should we consume the oil?
Thanks
Stephen J. Dubner of Freakonomics reports that Dr. Roberts is now writing a book on the Shangri-La Diet.
Bobbie: It would be dangerous to try this diet or any other diet without consulting your doctor and a nutritionist about your diabetes.
Jeanne J.: As we understand it, the oil or sugar water should be divided up and consumed two or three times per day, but not within an hour of any meal or eating. Our guess of the number of calories that Dr. Roberts eats for his various meals is given above in the main article. As we understand it, he doesn’t consciously diet or limit his eating. His eating just naturally declines in quantity because the sugar or oil results in lowering his appetite.
Pat: You would choose either sugar water or oil, not both. As stated above in the main article, you would take about 1 or 2 tablespoons of oil per day, or 3 to 6 tablespoons of sugar diluted in water per day. The higher amount would be good to start with, but the lower amount might be the best for maintenance after you have lost weight, according to our understanding of Dr. Robert’s writings. Dr. Roberts emphasizes that you need to be sensitive to your body’s reactions and adjust the amount to avoid the loss of too much of your appetite. (This all assumes that this diet works, which we are not claiming.)
I am confused too. What is the ratio of sugar to water per serving: and how many times a day should we drink the sugar water … or consume the oil?
How many times a day would you drink the sugar water and when?
How many tbs of table sugar in the water do you need?
Doesthis really work…and when you do eat, what do you eat and do you count calories??
Paula
Seems as though we all are interested in the same thing. Now – next question, since we are to select one or the other, which is preferable – the oil or the sugar?
Having read all the above I am more confused than ever. Want to try this. Saw GMA today and they said to take both the oil and the water … so which is it? Should you take the oil an hour before breakfast? then again between lunch and dinner? And then when do you fit the water in? Confused!
I agree with the Carrie tone. Why is it so difficult to come up with an absolute answer as to the specific amounts of the stuff and what method for delivery? Do you mix the oil with water, or, just suck it down? Fructose, etc? Just plain sugar and an amount (specific) of water in an exact measurement? Once? Twice a day? This has got to be an amazingly, super-simple “diet.” Why then all the confusion? I want the final statement on this, in one simple sentence! Now! Do you understand me? Don’t make me mad, ’cause it ain’t gonna be pleasant … argh!
I am a senior citizen age 75 and am struggling to get my weight down. Will this diet be safe for me? I walk a mile a day — am a vegan — and eat healthful as far as choice is concerned. But need to see more weight loss than I’ve had in 3-1/2 months of walking which at this point is only 9-10 lbs.
Thanks for any encouragement or suggestions.
Carol
I am confused as well. Do you need to use both the sweet water as well as the oil – or can you just use one?
Sorry for all the confusion. We didn’t see the Good Morning America, so we can’t really comment on what was said there. If anybody recorded it and can send us a digital video copy (to inquiry at calorielab dot com), we’ll take a look at it. Also, if a publisher for his book was mentioned, we’d like to know who it is.
Many of the questions are answered in the article above, especially the last part of it.
The reason why there is no one, fixed set of rules is that the “diet” evolved over years as Dr. Roberts experimented on himself, trying different things. Several of the things he tried resulted in weight loss. Initially he tried sugar, then oil, and now he’s experimenting with raw eggs. Just as Dr. Roberts experimented on himself, you may need to experiment on yourself. The same thing he did might not work on you, and at any rate, he did a lot of different things.
If you need a starting point, try swallowing a tablespoon of bland vegetable oil in midmorning, about 10:00 or 10:30, and another in midafternoon, about 3:00 or 4:00. It has to be at least an hour away from any meal or eating, for reasons explained in the article above. To summarize here, you need to give your body some calories, but in such a way that your body does not associate those calories with taste. To do this, (1) the substance must be virtually tasteless (oil, diluted sugar water, or raw egg), and (2) you cannot consume a meal (which would have taste) close to the consumption of the tasteless substance.
If you want to try the sugar water route, put three tablespoons of sugar in a pint of water and drink it all at about 10:00 or 10:30, and do the same at about 3:00 or 4:00. The type of sugar doesn’t matter (but don’t use “tasty” sugar like brown sugar, honey, or maple syrup).
Another thing to remember: This isn’t a diet in the traditional sense. There is no eating plan or meal suggestions. The whole idea is that consuming the oil or the water will deaden your appetite, and you will eat less. If it works, you will naturally be choosing to eat less food. If you are still eating a lot of food, it hasn’t worked. If it hasn’t worked, adjust the timing or amounts of oil or sugar. If after a few variations it still doesn’t work, maybe you should give up and try another diet — or wait until Dr. Roberts’ book is released.
I am very interested in this theory but also confused. I was understanding the oil and sugar water had to be taken daily. Could you explain this as well as recommended amounts of oil and sugar? I also read light extra virgin olive oil, canola oil, is one preferable? Thank You, Joan
I just spent the last 20 minutes reading the article and all of the responses. I found all the information very helpful, and all of my initial questions after reading the article were answered in the responses below. I suggest that everyone else the has posted today, after the Good Morning America story, read the article in full and also read the responses. They answer your questions (except for the diabetic question). The only reason I say this is because I see new people asking the same questions over and over again after they have been addressed above.
Joan,
Please read the sections at the end of the main article above entitled “Shangri-La finally achieved” and “Maintenance = calorie restriction,” as well as our message just above your message.
As for the oil, choose the one that seems the most tasteless to you, which would probably be canola oil.
Thank you very much for the summarization of this theory — rather than “diet.” I am no longer confused. I agree with CoraBora that anyone who has questions should read all the comments and responses above. Most likely, their questions will be answered and won’t waste anyone’s time having to re-address the same issues.
Thanks again!
By the way, if you want to get a better feel for how Dr. Roberts came up with his theory, and all the twists and turns he went through, the link to his web site at the University of California, Berkeley, at the top of the article will lead you to several of his papers on the subject. They’re not always easy reading, but you can get an idea of how his self-experimentation method works just by skimming them.
Can we substitute Splenda for sugar? This would be a help for diabetics or those bordering on Type 2 diabetes.
I have diabetes. Not sure if sugar is good for me. Want to try the diet though.
Thank you, gertrude
Here’s a link to the video on Good Morning America’s website
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/BeautySecrets/story?id=1310260
Do you take both the sugar water and the oil daily or just one?
Peggy,
Splenda definitely will not work, since it has no calories.
Can I do oil one day and sugarwater the next day? Or have oil midmorning and sugarwater midafternoon?
Thanks.
I found his book on Amazon.com. The publisher is Putnam Adult and was released April 2005. It costs 19.95. I read his paper and he says 3 fluid ounces of crystalline fructose mixed with 1 liter of plain water a day, not to be eaten within 1 hour of any meal (and I assume any flavored beverage too). This can be divided into 2 or 3 times. I also read that 3 fluid ounce’s = 6 tablespoons of regular sugar. You can also take 1 tablespoon canola oil 2 times during the day in lieu of the sugar water. Having water one time and canola oil the other time is fine as long as you follow the quantities. I haven’t tried it yet but it sounds worth attempting.
Sorry … the book won’t be available till April 2006.
Will flaxseed oil work the same as the canola oil? Would the dosage me the same?
Question: is it necessary to use the high calorie fructose water or could you substitute sucralose (Splenda) and water for this purpose?
You cannot use a sugar substitute such as Splenda, Equal, or Sweet ‘n Low because they do not contain any calories.
The idea is to trick your body into associating calories with flavorless food, therefore you don’t have a craving for more.
Using a sugar substitute does not supply the calories needed…
Bonnie’s comment and its response left out an important detail. The reason many diets work (especially low carb, adding healty snacks and smaller meals) is that it changes a person’s metabolic rate. However, if a person achieves weight loss through surgery, nothing has been done to change their metabolism, and therefore some measures must be taken to maintain a healthy weight.
For the people inquiring about sugar substitutes, they will not work.
Again, read the original article about why he thinks this is working and you will see why.
This appetite suppresant depends on the substance you are using to have some nutritive value, no taste, and a limited amount of calories.
Splenda, equal, etc have little or no nutritive value, so they won’t work, according to his theory. But then again, this doctor is not a physiologist, he’s a psychologist, so feel free to experiment on yourself like he did and see if it works.
Otherwise, I’d just use the oil method. It’s not nearly as bad as you think … has the consistency of cough syrup with no taste a all. Heck, have a glass of water after if you like.
Steve
The “diet” caught my attention on this morning news. So I swallowed a tablespoon of light olive oil mid-morning and haven’t tolerated it very well. I typically don’t eat when nauseous. The sugar water will probably be more tolerable for some heading for Shangri-La.
Sandra – I’d imagine the olive oil would have somewhat of a taste – but the Cannola oil does not. I tried it this morning and actually wasn’t hungry for lunch at all. Don’t know if that’s due to the power of suggestion this early in the game, but it is true.
Dr. Roberts results are based on self experimentation with bland/tasteless calories. So if “no taste” was better for weight loss than “tasty.” I wonder what would happen with “nasty”? I wonder if Dr. Roberts ever experimented with what happens when a sizable portion of calories come from unplesant tasting foods?
What about at night. I like to eat junk at night!
Ralph,
As we understand Dr. Roberts’ theory, the purpose of the oil or sugar is not to “fill you up” or deaden your appetite just before a meal. That would be the grapefruit diet or apple diet.
The purpose of the oil or sugar is to trick your body into diassociating calories with food taste, thus breaking your caveman instincts. The effect is an overall loss of appetite all through the day.
The only reason to drink the oil or sugar water in mid-morning and mid-afternoon is because those are long stretches of time when you normally wouldn’t be eating, so you have an hour or two of non-eating time around the time you drink the oil or sugar water. You could drink it a couple hours after dinner and at 3:00 in the morning if you like, with the same effect. If you wish to divide the oil or sugar water into three doses, with one at night, that’s fine too, but you can’t eat within an hour of taking the oil or sugar water.
I heard that the granulated fructose was bad for you. Is that true? Will the oil hurt you health wise?
Is this something that needs to be ordered to get the right measurements or can I do this on my own?
According to the back of my Splenda box it has 50 calories per packet.
Sandra: Fructose in the quantities specified for this program won’t hurt you. You’re getting much more of it in soft drinks and other processed food. But why search out fructose when table sugar will work as well?
Kathie: There’s nothing to buy, and there are no real “right” measurements. Dr. Roberts just says to experiment on yourself. He said, “That’s for me. For other people it could be different.”
Susan: I suppose Splenda could be used. But remember, the whole point is taking in a dose of 250 or 300 calories in a tasteless way. To get sufficient calories with Splenda, which has 6 calories per tablespoon (compared to 48 calories for sugar), you would need to dissolve about two and a half cups of Splenda in water. But since that amount of Splenda would be intensely sweet, you would need to increase the amount of water you diluted it in to approximately two gallons in order to make the Splenda water sufficiently “tasteless.” Therefore you would need to drink one gallon of Splenda water in the morning, and one gallon in the afternoon. But what have you gained over using sugar? Your caloric intake would be the same as if you had used sugar. The cost of the Splenda is much higher. And there may be health problems associated with consuming Splenda in such large quantities. Finally, you might drink so much water you end up dying from hyponatremia, a potentially fatal swelling of the brain.
So use regular sugar, or oil, rather than Splenda.
This is very interesting. I guess I’m going for the oil.
Why not Extra-Virgin Olive Oil? Is it because of the taste? I guess extra-light olive oil is OK. I took a tablespoonful and it wasn’t too bad, tried to imagine myself eating bread with it.
Only thing now is to design a portable oil dispenser (I imagine Seth is working on that already).
Hope this isn’t a front for his “real” research on mob diet psychology!
Seneschal: You mean something like this?:
“Dr. Seth’s XT (Extra Tasteless) Olive Oil” in convenient 1 tablespoon portatubes. Bite off the top, spit it out, and suck out the oil.
Confused … After I take the oil, can I drink water after the one hour limit is up? Cranola oil is best? I am 6′ 0″, 240 lbs. Can you help me with my oil intake? Can I eat normal after my 1 hour? Thanks.
Just curious,
What are the side effects of consuming 2 tablespoons of olive oil on a daily basis? Can it have a negative impact on your cholesterol? If I’m going to consume less food during the day, what type of foods should I be focusing on eating to ensure i’m not depriving my body of what it needs to be healthy?
I am confused about whether you use extra virgin olive oil or extra light olive oil. Which is it?
Thanks
Wanda
The type of oil or sugar is not really important. The program’s effects (according to Dr. Roberts’ theory) have nothing to do with any secret ingredient in a particular type of oil or sugar. The only important thing is that whatever you take must contain calories (150 to 300 per day) and be bland or tasteless. Most oils quality and most sugars when diluted qualify.
Dr. Roberts mentioned extra light olive oil on Good Morning America.
Bill: Olive oil has no cholesterol, and only a small amount of saturated fat. Olive oil is an important part of the healthy mediterranean diet, and an ounce a day shouldn’t be a health concern.
Will the oil help with dry skin/scalp or digestion in any way? I saw a comment about flax seed oil. Can it be used? I believe it’s supposed to be good for brain and memory issues.
I tried this with canola oil this a.m. after eating my normal low-sugar instant oatmeal, but today, I drank a can of OJ with it. I noticed I got hungry sooner. I think maybe it was the OJ. What do you think? I haven’t noticed any change in appetite or what I’ve eaten for lunch. Does this take a few days to be effective?
I did not see that the flax oil question was ever answered?
I want to try this diet. I saw the piece on Good Morning America. I’ve read alot of the comments on this page and Info on the “diet.”
My only question is do you take the oil and the sugar water on the same day? It’s not really clear to me.
Oh, and before I forget, after you take the oil and sugar water. Can you eat whatever you want that following that meal?
Does this Dr. Seth eat during the day or only consume oil or sugar water? It says he eats one 900 calorie meal, 300 calories in two fruits, and the rest in sugar or oil.
It seems to me 900 kcals all at once would overload the system, especially if you are sleeping on this meal. Is the oil and sugar water meant only for in between meals?
Patsy: We’re not familiar with flax oil, but ask yourself if it meets the bland and tasteless test. If so, then it presumably can be used. Dr. Roberts has used olive oil, but in an extra light version.
Courtney: Dr. Roberts said on Good Morning America that he currently uses extra light olive oil, but when he is out and about and does not have access to oil, he drinks sugar water. So apparently you can do both. For self-experimentation purposes, however, it is probably best to try one way at a time: one oil or sugar dilution, one schedule. Then adjust if it it not working. If you mix, you need to make sure that the overall daily calories from whatever methods you use equals the amount that you have decided on (say, 250 or 300 calories).
Courtney and Linda: As far as what you can eat, there are no rules or menus or diet plans in the Shangri-La Diet. The oil or sugar water is supposed to deaden your appetite, and you will naturally tend not to eat so much. Of course, since you are not eating as much, you should try to eat foods that are nutritious as possible, but Dr. Roberts has not made any specific recommendations for foods to eat, other than fruit as snacks. In an earlier version of his diet, he ate foods with very little processing, as stated in our article above, but that is not really necessary in his new system. When confronted with the necessity of padding out his magazine-article-sized theory to fill a whole book, Dr. Roberts may end up coming up with recommendations, but you have to wait until April for that. In the meantime, you need to look elsewhere for recommendations. Here are the Dietary Guidelines for American, 2005, for example.
Confused … After I take the oil, can I drink water after the one hour limit is up? Canola oil is best? I am 6′ 0″, 240 lbs. Can you help me with my oil intake? Can I eat normal after my 1 hour? Thanks.
Charlie: Can you drink water after one hour? Sure. Can you drink it before (within) one hour? We’re not sure, but there’s probably no problem, since water is tasteless.
Canola or whatever bland salad-type oil you have on hand is fine. As for whether your weight and BMI affects the dose, who knows? But you’re not much bigger than Dr. Roberts was, so try his initial dose of 250 to 300 calories of oil per day (2 tablespoons or a bit more, say 2-2/3 tablespoons, which is 2 tablespoons plus 2 teaspoons, which equals 8 teaspoons).
I looked at the Good Morning America show again, since I have it on TiVo. Dr. Roberts never says he used extra virgin oil, but extra light olive oil. I think when people hear extra and olive oil they automatically hear the word virgin in between.
Thanks, Carl. That makes more sense. We’ll go back and correct/annotate all previous references when we get the chance.
Since tea is brewed with water, would sweetened tea do the same as plain sugar water?
Judith: Tea is not tasteless, so it would not qualify. And sweetened tea would probably have too much suger (or rather, too little water). The sugar needs to be diluted to the point that the sweetness in not so apparent (about 6 tablespoons per quart or liter). [Update: Dr. Roberts seems to be saying that pure sweetness is not tasty. See the note in the article above.]
When I follow a link from msn search to this page, I see only the comments, not the article. What do I have to do to read the article?
Ruth,
Wow, that’s strange! What search term are you using? I didn’t even know there was a way to show only the comments. Perhaps MSN has indexed a comments-only RSS feed that I don’t know about. Or maybe the link jumped you to the middle of the page (in which case you could scroll up to the top).
At any rate the direct link to the article is here: “Seth Roberts’ Shangri-La Diet in detail”. At the top of the article you should see a black and white photograph of Dr. Roberts on a treadmill. Dr. Roberts has put his office computer on top of a treadmill so that he can walk while he works.
I would like to commend CalorieLab for their extraordinary patience! My gosh! Don’t you just want to scream at these people who keep asking the same question? It isn’t that difficult!
Reading all these comments, I suppose that drinking coffee whithin the “before” and the “after” hour can not be helpful. Could you speculate on that a little?
As Deidre, I do appreciate your great patience you prove. Thank you for all these answers.
This actually works. I am 21 years old and a psychology student. I am overweight and tried this diet for 2 days and I am not as hungry as I usually am. Also, I have the energy to exercise. This is incredible! Watch this blow up on the news very soon! Way to go, Dr. Seth Roberts!
laura: That’s an interesting question about the coffee. It’s the reverse of the oil. Oil disassociates taste from calories because it gives you calories but is tasteless. Does coffee, at least black coffee, disassociate taste from calories because it has taste but no calories?
But I think we can say with a certain amount of confidence that things like the Starbucks 730-calorie Venti Caramel Chocolate Frappuccino with whipped cream fall outside the Shangri-La Diet or any other diet.
The question about flax seed oil got me thinking. It seems to me it would also work if a sufficient quantity of flax seed or fish oil capsules (gelcaps) were taken. They would supply the calories without a taste. It would also be easier to carry around some capsules than lug around a bottle of oil.
Using a blender, can you mix the oil, water and sugar into one drink and gulp it down for the desired effect?
Sandra: Use either oil or sugar water, not both.
Stokely: It seems like it would take a lot of gelcaps to add up to a tablespoon. It could get expensive. Also, there might be a problem if the calories are not all sensed by the body at one time due to the casings of the gelcaps not dissolving simultaneously.
CalorieLab:
Good point about the quantity of gelcaps. I was originally thinking it would be about 2-4 capsules, but it would more likely be on the order of 6-12.
My problem with this is that sugar water is not realistic for me, as I’m hypoglycemic. Just tried the sugar water as an experiment this afternoon and within 30 minutes I was ravenously hungry. Same reaction I get from drinking sodas or eating fruit on an empty stomach (something I ordinarily don’t do). As far as oil, I’m not sure I can handle taking a tablespoon of oil, but I haven’t tried it yet so it may not be as bad as I think.
I do think my idea is sound in principle, which is to supply calories in a taste-free form (stuffed in a capsule). Most of the critiques of this theory (especially from the anti-sugar, low carb people), have been targeted at the alleged health risks of either fructose/sucrose or canola oil. (The detractors conveniently left out the option of using olive oil, which is generally regarded as being healthful). The calories could come from some nutritious food, thus negating the arguments of the detractors, but would be inside a bland tasting capsule. This is all assuming that the original theory actually works, of course.
Well, I tried the oil yesterday. The concept works, but man, it’s hard to swallow a mouthful of grease! I thought I would try the 4 T fructose in 1 liter of water today, and I’ve got to tell you, that’s a lot of water to drink at one time and it does taste sweet to me. Not trying to be difficult, just thought I’d pass on my experience.
The oil does not have a bad taste. I use canola now and it is quite easy to handle. I would think that this method would have a better chance to work than the sugar. I do not see much appetite improvement, but it might be because I chew gum and drink coffee (allways black) throughout the day. It is not “eating” but it is “tasty” and that might be all it takes to anihilate the entire diet system.
My skin feels much softer, though, and I know that is from the oil.
Did anyone do any better?
Jan: You only need to drink half the liter at a time, once in the a.m., once in the p.m.
Interesting comment about it still tasting sweet, however.
Does anyone know what the difference is in the amount of weight people lost compared to other popular diets? Or is it just to soon for results?
In case anyone else didn’t realize this: While Shangri-la was a peaceful perfect place, it also doesn’t exist. I would file this under “things that make you go Hmmmmmm.”
I’ve been following your Shangri La guidelines now for 3 days, using the sugar water. Several observations:
(1) it does appear to work as an appetite suppressant; however, that may be due to the “suggestion effect”: because I’m trying this experiment, I’m very concious of what/how much I’m eating, and that may contribute to my not wanting to eat much to make this thing work.
(2) I dilute 3 T sugar in 16 oz. water and drink it between breakfast and lunch, and mix the same solution and drink it between lunch and dinner. However, I am concerned that the drink tastes somewhat sweet. In fact, if it’s warmed a little (Seth says he drinks it hot in cafes) I actually look forward to it! It seems like that would defeat the whole theory behind this. What do you think? Should I dilute the sugar in more water to make it more “tasteless”?
I ran right out and bought the canola oil. I have used it for two days and my appetite is much lower. Then I googled “canola danger.” The information is divided between the danger is a hoax and the danger is real. What is your opinion?
Debra: There are no statistics about how much weight people lost on this diet because only Dr. Roberts and a couple of his friends have ever used it. It’s just his theory, not a real diet that a lot of people have used.
MSCHAEFER: As we stated in the article, we think this is just a crazy fad diet, but we made an attempt to objectively report on what Dr. Roberts theories and recommendations are.
Carmen: You’re not the first to say that the recommended amount of sugar and water produces a distinctly sweet beverage. Maybe you should start with oil instead of sugar water? I also don’t really understand how Dr. Roberts can use hot sugar water in cafes. The whole idea is to get 150 calories or so in one tasteless shot, and 150 calories of sugar in a teacup of hot water is really going to be sweet, I’d think.
Jan: There’s nothing wrong with canola oil. Also, Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assasin of JFK, and aliens didn’t land at Roswell. There’s a whole universe out there on the internet of health nuts who are in fact nuts, and the anti-canola crowd is part of that. The circumstances that surround the history of canola oil are particularly suited to their paranoid, conspiracy-oriented minds. But if you’re really concerned, just use another tasteless oil
Can you mix the oil & sugar water during the day, or does it have to be one or the other?
Linnie: Read the “November 15th, 2005, at 10:58 pm” comment.
Thank you so much for all your research! I do fine during the day — it’s in the evening that I have the snacking problem. I will say the hot sugar water does seem to remove my cravings. Thanks again!
I read an article by Keven Trudeau that advocated eating two tablespoons of coconut oil per day to lose weight. It does have a distinctive taste, so I was wondering if it would work. I also have coconut oil capsules — would they work? This would be really painless if it would work. Thanks.
Sugar alone in water does not register as a taste according to this theory. May I respectfully encourage those with questions to read the material available on the Freakonomics site (as well as othera) before repeating oft-asked (and previously answered) questions?
Cathy
We checked out Cathy’s statement that sugar water is not ‘tasty” in Dr. Roberts theory. Although we cannot immediately locate any statement by Dr. Roberts to this effect, the article in The New York Times by the Freakonomics authors, Dubner and Levitt, says “Sweetness does not seem to act as a ‘flavor” in the body’s caloric-signaling system.”
Preorder The Shangri-La Diet today!
(Scheduled for April 20, 2006, publication)
So, apparently, the idea is that pure sweetness is not tasty, but sweet foods with other aspects to their taste (including sweeteners like honey, brown sugar, maple syrup) count as tasty. We’ve added this piece of information to the summary article above.
By the way, The Shangri-La Diet book is available on Amazon.com for preordering. The book is scheduled for release April 20 of next year by Putnam Adult (ISBN 0399153640). The list price is given as $19.95. Amazon usually discounts popular new hardcover books, but perhaps this far before publication they may not have decided on their final price.
My family doctor recommended that I try this diet as a safe alternative to perscription weight loss medication. The Mediterranean Diet is based on the people of the Mediterranean with lower chronic disease and longer life. The diet has olive oil listed as a daily part of the food pyramid. It has also been shown that the olive oil helps increase HDL (good) cholesterol. So even if it doesn’t help you lose weight, it looks like it may have a few other advantages.
I have used the oil for a week now. It has changed my appetite. I was one of those that ate something salty and then had a need for something sweet and so on. It was like a never ending circle of cravings. I no longer have those needs to snack and cover the taste of the previous snack. I have been able to stop thinking about food during times when I need to be working, cleaning, or playing.
I hope this will be something that will help change me into a healthier person. Thanks for all the information you have provided. It has been helpful. Good luck to everyone out there trying this.
I started this diet on 9/12, shortly after Roberts was profiled in Freakonomics in the NYT. I am 5′11″, and weighed 226 pounds. I now weigh 205 pounds.
A number of people who tried the diet have posted at this link, and Seth Roberts himself has answered many of the questions posed about the diet (scroll down to the comments under introduction/general comments area):
My daily diet:
I’m guessing I take in 1,500–2,000 calories a day. My exercise is limited to a daily walk, about 30 minutes, with very occasional swims or bike rides, less than once a week. I expect I will eat bigger meals once I return to my exercise program.
At first, I lost a half-pound to a pound a day. Then I started to plateau for several days, sometimes even gaining a little, before drifting down.
Losing about one pound a week now. Your mileage may vary. The diet works, it’s easy, I eat whatever I feel like, but I snack much much less, no late night noshing, and I don’t miss it.
Leftblanc,
Thanks for the details. From your description it seems like you’re eating:
This adds up to 2,020–2,120 calories per day. That should account for your weight loss of one pound a week.
A more traditional weight loss program would simply be to eat 400 calories for breakfast, 600 calories for lunch, and 800 calories for dinner, with 300 calories allotted for snacks. That’s not a very restrictive diet. It’s a fairly normal amount of food for many thin people, and it’s not that hard to do if you avoid calorie-dense fast food, restaurant food, and packaged food. The 400 or 500 empty calories from the oil and sugar could be put to better nutritional use.
Have you tried a more traditional calorie counting diet and not been able to stick to it? Another idea: try limiting your food intake to 2,100 calories, but drink plain water throughout the day: I suspect that water or hot water in itself has an appetite suppressing effect simply by filling up your stomach and bloating you.
CalorieLab
Thanks for the edit. In response to your questions:
I’ve never really been a dieter, apart from being a near-vegetarian for reasons other than weight. I can’t be bothered to count calories. I just eat what I feel like eating, when I feel like it. And that is really how I prefer to live. Why would I avoid restaurant food? I live in New York City, home to some of the greatest restaurants in the world. And I don’t have time to cook most days. So this diet allows me to lose weight with a minimum of effort (and hunger).
It’s true that 400 or 500 calories of oil/sugar consists of empty calories, but it has replaced, easily, about 1,000 calories of junk — soda, cookies, candy, chips. Probably 1,500 on some days. And my meals are currently half the size of meals I used to eat. It really does allow you to cut the calories easily — my wife can’t believe it now when I pass on dessert. And I don’t get hungry between meals. Before, I could not resist the junk. It’s everywhere, in vending machines, passed around the office, etc. Last week a neighbor dropped off a piece of chocolate cake and it actually went stale. I forgot it was there. Unheard of. And I was always a plate cleaner. Why eat one cookie when you can eat the whole bag? I was a three slices guy; now one slice of pizza is enough. Tasty food made me hungrier. Not anymore. There is no will power involved here. I still don’t have any will power. I’m just not hungry for those things.
And no matter what I ate, no matter how much or how little I exercised,,I stuck at 226 or so pounds for about seven years. I didn’t like being quite that heavy, but it wasn’t enough to inspire me to take any action.
I embarked on this sugar water method as a lark. I couldn’t believe something this simple could possibly work. It appealed to my essential laziness. And I think that is one reason some people really don’t like the idea and react negatively. They think there should be pain involved, some moral effort. And if you read the original link, there are some desperate people who still haven’t gotten it to work. Everybody’s different.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this method works for me for the reasons you state — calorie restriction and appetite suppression. But it’s so much easier than counting calories. It’s not like I didn’t know a jelly doughnut had a lot of calories back then; I ate it anyway. And you mention trying plain water to fill up — it’s funny, but that’s another side benefit of the diet. I could never get myself to drink the supposed daily requirement. It gets quite boring. I was often dehydrated. But even 15 calories of sugar makes water much more palatable. I am quite hydrated these days. And I’m drinking a lot less coffee, which was turning into a serious addiction.
Do I buy the set-point theory that Roberts is peddling? Not really, but I don’t reject it, either. I just don’t know. I do think there is something to the idea that my body uses taste and texture to recognize certain calorie-dense foods and tells me to eat more of them, even if I don’t need more calories. And it’s my experience that the sugar water really does turn that switch off.
I’m less open to his suggestion that our bodies might store those dense calories differently. But I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.
The theories are quite beside the point. I don’t want to work hard at it. Life’s too short. I could become a vegan like my wife and never touch sweets and never eat out and stuff myself with salad and whole grains etc. Or I could be like the Atkins fan I know who licks peanut butter from a spoon all day and actually scrapes the cheese off pizza to eat and skips the crust. Not for me, thanks. If thinking about calories all the time is the choice, I’d rather be fat.
If it fails and I boomerang back, I promise to come back and confess. E-mail me in a few months, maybe when his book comes out, if I don’t keep the promise. I’d be happy to be exhibit A if this is just another fad. And if it’s just a gimmick that actually gets people to restrict their calories, then, well, I guess I can’t fault the guy for that, if it works.
LB
Can I do oil one day and sugarwater the next day? Or have oil midmorning and sugarwater midafternoon?
That is what I do. I take the oil when I am someplace where I can’t drink sugarwater (like in court or on the road where bathroom stops would get in the way). But otherwise I take the sugarwater since it doesn’t taste as bad.
It has worked well so far, down almost ten pounds in ten days.
Stephen
Don’t get discouraged if the pound-a-day thing tapers off. It seems
to stabilize and slow down after a month or so, with a lot of plateaus,
or at least that was my experience. Just as well, it’s probably a shock
to the body to drop that much weight that quickly.
LB
Leftblancm — Thanks for the encouragement. I’ve dieted before, usually a protein-modified fast of some sort. My usual weight gain pattern was move, gain twenty pounds, get adjusted, lose the weight. I did that a number of times.
Then I went through some terribly rough times and gained weight (details here). Suddenly, instead of 172 when things were sorted out and 195 when things were rough I was up to 240 pounds and unable to really lose weight. To keep 240 pounds takes a lot of food (the fat takes calories of its own just to maintain).
I’m eating what I recognize is maintenance amounts of food — what I ate when I wasn’t fat and felt normal about food. So I know that at some point I’m going to taper off, especially since as I lose weight I no longer have the fat’s maintenance needs to help me lose weight.
On the good side, I’ve been weight training and walking a mile or so. As I lose weight I expect I’ll be able to run again for real distances.
So far I’ve only lost 10 pounds, but it has been a long time since I was 229. I’m looking forward to 195 and below, but figure I have a long time to reach that place.
About this diet, the things that have really impressed me are:
Diets — other than fasting type diets — never worked because I would adjust. With this one, adjustment means being normal, and I like that.
Before I start, I should say that I am not Steve Levitt, nor am I his co-author. I am just a grad student with about 40 pounds to lose, and with job interviews coming up (and your physical appearance being subconsciously important to interviewers), I want to lose weight. I started this diet today: one tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil this morning, and a liter of water with two tablespoons of granulated fructose in it this afternoon. The olive oil made me gag and I felt like throwing up, so I will likely switch to canola oil (and folks, I know it’s not supposed to be extra virgin but extra light, but we only had extra virgin olive oil in our kitchen cupboards.)
I don’t know if it’s psychological, but I have had a toasted slice of bread with reduced fat Muenster cheese this morning, and drinking the sugar water seems to have suppressed my appetite. I have easily skipped lunch, and I was exactly like some of you before. I would think about food all the time, especially when bored, and therefore eat the junkiest foods (boneless chicken wings, pizza, etc.) and then feel guilty about it, only to go on a crash diet and feel more guilty about overeating the next time I did it.
This seems to work well to suppress appetite. Do I believe the “set-point” hypothesis? I don’t know, but it makes intuitive sense, especially since I’ve dropped massive amounts of weight when I went to Africa to do fieldwork (and I had foie gras and pastries every day, since I was in a former French colony.) But if it suppresses my appetite and allows me to drop weight, I am enthusiastic about it. I will keep trying this for a month, and I will let you guys know.
Question for Calorielab:
I have heard that some studies have suggested a link between increased insulin and artherosclerosis. Drinking the sugar water is going to lead to increased insulin levels. Is there a chance that drinking sugar water every day over a long period of time could then lead to artherosclerosis? Or is the amount of sugar in the water too little to result in much of an insulin increase?
Thank you for the good information, but does it really matter if the water is warm or not? What effect if any will this have on your system (warm water)?
Re insulin levels & sugar. I’m taking in a lot less sugar than I did before the diet, when you consider all the snacks, cookies, ice cream, candy, desserts, sodas andso forth that I am no longer consuming between meals (or hidden in them). But some people argue even small amounts are not good.
Seth Roberts would tell you to take oil instead. Some people gag at that.
Certainly anyone with an existing health problem should talk to a doctor before changing diet substantially.
Zeta: We can’t really comment on your insulin question, except to agree with Leftblanc that you should consider your overall daily sugar intake from all sources, and see a doctor.
samanthainms: I don’t recall in my reading Dr. Roberts saying the water he used was warm, other than when he drank it in a cafe. He has been tweaking this diet over a period of years though, so maybe at one point or another, or in the most recent version, the temperature plays a part. We’ll just have to wait for the book.
I know he has recommended to people to do their own self experimentation, and that what works for him may not work for others. That’s not what people want to hear, of course.
Eventually I have learned not to gag so badly on the olive oil, but I prefer the sugar water. I mix it in the morning and drink it at room temperature at work. Works for me. I only go to the olive oil (using a small plastic bottle I bought at Albetson’s) when I’m at church or in depositions or some place I either can’t get to a restroom or take a break to drink that liter of water.
I’m doing a tablespoon of oil or a third of a cup of sugar in a liter of water, twice a day. I’ll adjust as my weight loss slows down. I find that the water works better than the oil.
But everyone who has noted the desire to gag … I’m dealing with it too.
I can’t say enough about the dramatic switch in the way I feel about food. I’m learning to think normally and act normally.
I’m a 52-year-old woman, 5 feet tall. I’ve been on the Shangri La Diet since September 17, 2005, and have gone from 163.50 pounds that day to 144.125 pounds today on November 29, 2005. I plan on losing more weight based on how I feel and what I look like.
I’ve been using confectioner’s sugar because it dissolves quickly in tap water at room temperature.
Questions for you readers:
I wish someone could confirm and explain these two comments to me!
This message is for Cherryl …
Looks like you have lost lost 20 pounds in 22 days What was you schedule? How much sugar did you add in your daily routine?
I am trying to lose just 7 to 8 pounds, but it does not seem that this diet works for me. Maybe you did something different?
Would you share your secret?
Hi, this message is for Laura.
Just to clarify, I’ve now lost 20.375 pounds in 74 days (September 17, 2005–November 30, 2005).
Here’s my daily routine:
By the way, I’ve tried Seth Robert’s experiment of standing a lot during the day and it’s really changed the way I sleep. After standing to watch TV instead of sitting, and taking walking breaks at work, I sleep fewer hours, but sleep soundly and wake up refreshed! It’s worth trying.
Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask me more questions here.
Happy Holidays,
Cheryl
Laura,
Here’s one more thing about my routine: I drink very few alcoholic beverages — but when I do, I feel compelled to eat more, even though I’ve taken the sugar-water as I described above. I don’t know why this is, although alcohol is known to weaken impulse control and alcohol affects the body in other ways. To sleep better, I only drink in the early part of the day — if I drink at all.
If you feel comfortable doing so, describing your daily routine might help us readers see what you’re doing and help us make suggestions. I also wonder how you arrived at your goal of X number of pounds.
I don’t know your age, but I’ve read that a person’s internal organs keep growing until age 25. You may want to get your fat percentage measured as well as get a physical exam.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Hello, Cheryl,
You are just great. You took all this time and expalined your schedule … Thank you very much!
I am 29 yrs old, 5.35′ tall and 113 pounds, coming from 107–108 pounds, weight added in the last two months.
Well, I started to use this simple diet five days ago — with oil — early in the morning and mid-afternoon. Just for two days I had oil in the morning and sugar water at 4.oo pm. Squash and sweet potato for lunches and dinners. No butter. Some almonds, too. Result? I am now 117 pounds. I feel less cravings, I have to say, but all this weight added …
I drink a lot of coffee in the morning and I chew sugarless gum all day long. This is why I have the oil (canola) at 7.am, so I have two hours until I get to my first coffee mug and one hour before my first “Trident.” Never alcohol.
Today is my first day without oil or sugar-water. I really wanted to get down to 105 pounds, but it does not look like I will make it there soon …
I added 4 pounds in 5–6 days.
On the sugar/diabetes question, Roberts has urged people concerned about that to stick with the flavorless oil if they can stand it. He also seems to suggest the diet works better with oil. But many of us are having results with sugar water. He advised drinking it slowly rather than in one big rush of sugar.
On the original blog I gave a link to, where he still comments from time to time, he also said he almost always takes sugar water warm. I do that some of the time, too, because people are less likely to look twice when you grab some sugars and put them in a cup of water. They assume you are having tea. But when you start pouring it into a bottle of water (I prefer to dilute and sip over time), people give you funny looks.
Laura,
When I started the Shangri-La Diet, I was amazed at how many calories are in food! I’d think that I’d eaten very little, and the scale the next morning would tell me otherwise.
I climb stairs in the middle of my sedentary workday, so I’m not tempted to use caffeine to keep me awake.
Sincerely,
Cheryl
Dear Leftblanc,
I’m not a diabetic, but I know that diabetics can test themselves, so maybe if a dose of oil is too unpleasant, they can consult their doctors and monitor themselves more closely as they use sugar-water.
I wonder if people take sugar water warm because sugar dissolves faster in warm water than in cool water. I use confectioner’s sugar because it dissolves rapidly in room-temperature tap water.
I’ve tried a number of diets and did have success with the South Beach Diet (on their website, it’s known as being “on the Beach”). I lost a lot of weight doing the very restrictive Phase 1 — but I got so homesick for all the foods that I grew up eating. I got “off the Beach” for that reason.
With the Shangri La Diet, as I eat to lose weight, I find that I miss the amount of food that I was used to eating.
Happy Holidays,
Cheryl
The diet continues to work well for me.
I should note that it quit working for my dad when he used sugar water and brushed his teeth, etc. He was sure that “no flavor” meant only “no calories.” He has since decided to follow the diet completely.
I’m down over fifteen pounds from the beginning of November. At first it was half a pound a day. I’d say I’m closer to a third of a pound a day now. I just do not want to eat. I eat a good breakfast, though I realized I had cut back on the portions as I got settled into the diet; yogurt and a sandwich for lunch, the same for dinner. I eat a lot of non-fat yogurt (I like the flavor). When my wife got some whole yogurt by mistake, I ended up eating half as much.
I’m still impressed, and still think differently.
Does it have to be olive oil? It seems that because it is an oil that it helps fend off hunger. How about flax seed and grape seed (a totally tastless oil)? (Canola also contains some omega 3.)
Combining those 50/50 is extremelly healthy as that about covers our need for omega oils 3 and 6 and the best source of essential fatty acids necessary for good health. I plan on trying this diet using these oils combined. Does anyone know of any reason why they wouldn’t work just as well, and create optimum health at the same time?
Mary,
I don’t see why other tasteless oils wouldn’t fit within Dr. Roberts’ theory. But remember that the function of the oil is to reduce your appetite at meals, not replace meals and supply nutrition. You should be eating fish and other sources of oils during your meals.
Well, of course we need to be eating healthy, though I doubt many eat as much fish as they should.
If we are adding additional calories (oil having the greatest calories per gram and most having no nutitional value), why not make it beneficial by adding much needed supplementation instead of more empty calories. Just because it is not a “meal,” why not add a product that is nutitional.
P.S.: I tryed some yesterday and it was amazing how that bit of oil quells your hunger. A real help with all the holiday temptations. Looking forward to the book.
A thought for brushing teeth after drinking sugar water:
A dentist friend of mine told me once that toothpaste is not really an important part of brushing teeth as most people think, and that if you run out of toothpaste you will still get most of the benefit from brushing with just water.
If this is true (no idea), perhaps you could brush with a new (uncontaminated with flavors from previous toothpaste use!) toothbrush with just water? Just keep two toothbrushes (and don’t mix them up).
A lot of people seem to be missing the “No flavor within an hour” part and drinking coffee or O.J. or chewing gum, etc. I suppose smokers should refrain from smoking within an hour too (or at all, of course!).
Having not tried the diet, but being one of the few people apparently who bothered to actually read his paper and try to understand it, I imagine that if Roberts’ ideas are actually valid, there will still be many, many failure reports from people who don’t even understand the premise and screw it up in some basic way. At least judging by the comments here, that will be a lot of people.
Personally I found his paper extremely convincing, and I believe it works. I’m going to experiment myself. Butnote that this is only claimed to be a weight loss diet and not a healthy lifestyle diet as most other currently popular diets do (Atkins, South Beach, etc.), right or wrong. Roberts (at least in what I have read) doesn’t claim to know anything about nutrition and has only claimed to have an idea that will help you lose weight, not be healthy. While the two are linked, there is no evidence that this is a healthy way to eat, even if it works.
TC: I came to the same conclusion about toothpaste as your dentist after reading a book on the history of Procter & Gamble. Toothpaste in its modern form and many other hygiene products were cooked up by P&G marketing people, not dentists and doctors.
I’ve had some reported failures with the diet.
One was taking the olive oil with garlic salt and bread, as a sort of snack … the other was drinking sugar water with their meals.
They weren’t quite getting the point.
Finally, a guy who felt that if two tablespoons of oil worked well, one would work better and a half would be perfect.
Sigh.
The hour without flavors is very important. If you do nothing else precisely (for instance, the amount of sugar or oil seems to depend on the individual), observe the hour.
Very light tasting olive oil works; Roberts has also recommended flax oil and canola oil. Sugar taste doesn’t count, for whatever reason. There are tasteless baking soda toothpastes, although Roberts doesn’t think toothpaste is a problem.
This is based on his comments at a blog, but I also agree anyone doing this should read his paper and understand the theory in full.
I am 46 years old, 5 foot 4 inches, 205 pounds, my top weight ever. My activity level is moderate (I have young kids and not a sit down job), but I don’t have an exercise program at this time. I plan to (don’t we always).
Anyway, I am going to try this. I do pretty good during the day eating an appropriate amounts of calories, up until dinner time. I am so busy at work, I don’t think about food. I then come home and eat a hugh amount of calories for dinner. Then I snack all evening, due to emotional or bordom reasons I guess. I try not buy snack foods to discipline myself, but then I find something to put together, whether its cheese and saltines with mayo, flour, butter and sugar for a cookie dough, sugared oatmeal or anything I can find. I’ve even eaten uncooked cake mixes. It’s bad!
So here is my question. Since I have my trouble at night, should I not start this procedures of sugar water and oil until around 3:00 pm? Then should I do some after dinner to prevent my evening binging? I have given up hope so I pray this works for me. I’ll let you know.
Jerri,
Why don’t you try it with the normal timing to begin with. If it doesn’t work, you can experiment.
I think that starting with the normal timing will be easier for you too, since you aren’t going to have trouble with finding two hour blocks of time without taste or food.
I’ve found the normal timing has really made a difference for me in the evenings.
I have been trying the oil for about 8 days now and have not noticed any change in my appetite.
I usually take a tablespoon of canola oil at 10 a.m. and another at 4 p.m., and usually keep at least a 2-hour gap from eating before and after the oil.
Anyone have any suggestions for me? Thanks
I have used Propel for the water/sugar mix and find that works good, but you just have to eat less. The Propel eliminates most hunger pains.
Imtiaz — how much do you weigh now and how much do you want to weigh? Have you considered moving up to one and a half tablespoons of oil each time?
Or, a cup of sugar water as a chaser for the oil (take a 2 liter bottle, wash well, put in 2/3 cup sugar and 2 liters of water).
I’ve found that many people just don’t use enough. In addition, the anorexics who have tried the diet do not seem to have lost weight, and one gained some (which I thought a good thing).
I’m taking my oil at 10:30 and 2:30/3:00, later if I forget because I’m busy, and it is still working for me, but I’m on two tablespoons twice a day. When I was at only one I had to conciously diet and it was hard (I was using oil for the times when sugar water wasn’t convenient).
A mistake many people make is trying to use the least amount of water/oil possible. My advice is to use enough to get solid results.
I was wondering how this Shangri-La Diet affects the blood sugar levels? Does anyone know about this or have any experience with this?
Julie
I have very easily lost about 18 pounds in 3 months using oil and/or sugar water.
Normally I need to eat about 2,200 calories per day to maintain my weight. Using Seth Roberts’ approach, I now eat between 1,200 and 1,700 calories per day, most days without feeling hungry or deprived at all.
I would agree with Stephen that one of the keys is making sure you drink enough sugar water or oil to suppress your hunger. For me, I’ve arbitrarily said the first 500 calories each day will be from sugar water or oil, then I’ll eat whatever I feel like eating, which is typically between 700 and 1,200 calories. Usually, if I eat more than 800–900 calories (after the sugar water or oil), I’m very full.
At first I used sugar water (fructose water, actually), than about halfway through I switched to oil. Both have worked equally well for me.
Re: blood sugar question: I had planned to get a complete blood panel done about halfway through to see what effect the diet was having on my cholesterol, but didn’t. I’m about 2 pounds away from my goal and will get it done as soon as I get there. My guess is that oil is better than fructose and fructose is better than sugar from a blood sugar perspective.
I have been on the diet for two days now.
I was wondering if it was okay to chase the oil with a little water to help it go down? Also, is it best to eat breakfast first, then later take the oil in mid morning?
My appetite has only been slightly affected and I am taking two tablespoons in the morning and two in the afternoon. Is this normal? Thoughts? Comments?
Thanks!
This message is for Mark Metivier:
Congrats for starting the diet and Happy New Year!
My impression is that it’s okay to drink plain water at any time. If it helps you swallow the oil, why not use it?
I don’t know if it’s best to eat breakfast first, then later take the oil in mid morning, but you do need to be sure that they’re an hour or more apart.
If you find yourself eating a big breakfast, you might try taking the oil an hour before breakfast, then see if you feel comfortable eating a smaller breakfast.
You could try sugar water instead of oil and see if it decreases your appetite more.
Hope this helps,
Cheryl
I am 205, 5′4, female.
Is regular table sugar okay? I have sugar cubes that will easily fit in a bottle of water.
Seth says 6 tablespoons of sugar in 1 litter of water: Is that to be split throughout the day or is that per morning and afternoon?
Should I start with both the oil and sugar water or one or the other?
Will I notice a difference right away or will it take a while? How long should I expect it to take before I start noticing my hunger subsiding? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks?
For anyone who is interested, I’ve written a four-page summary (in downloadable PDF format) of Seth Roberts’ Shangri-La diet based on his paper, “What Makes Food Fattening.” I’ve gathered the information from the couple of forums on the diet, and my 3-month experience with the diet (which has been very effective for me).
Out of respect for his intellectual property, I did ask for and received Seth’s O.K. to distribute.
It can be downloaded from the (free) Savefile server at:
http://www.savefile.com/files/2370460
[Editor's note: dead link, see next comment]
After you go the above link, you’ll need to click on the orange “Download” button, and then on the next page, click on the “Download this file now” link.
I hope it’s helpful.
– SFC
After re-considering — and I’m sure in light of the substantial investment of time and money that he and his publisher are making in his upcoming book due out in April, Seth has asked that I remove the summary from internet distribution and, of course, I respect that decision. So sorry.
Wow, I can’t believe this thread is still going. Sorry without having coffee within that first hour.
Bill: Any flavor — especially strong flavor — that is experienced within some time (about 1 hr) after having had calories would create a calorie/flavor signal, so the answer to your question would be, “Yes.” You could have the oil first, then the coffee an hour later, or vice versa.
Jerri: for me, I arbitrarily said I’d have the first one-quarter of my normal maintenance calories each day as oil or sugar water (as needed to quell my hunger). For me, that’s about 550 calories, which equates to about two-thirds cups of sugar or fructose mixed into a two-litres of water or four-and-a-half tablespoons of extra light tasting olive oil taken as needed in 1/2 tablespoon doses. After that, I pretty much allow myself to eat whatever I want and fill up at around an additional 800-1,000 calories of normal food, which puts me at 1,300 to 1,500 total calories per day, which is about 700-900 calories below my 2,200 maintenance calorie level. I wouldn’t argue that this is “the right” way — just the way that has worked for me. Once I start eating real food, I tend to want more real food, so doing the sugar water/oil seems to work better for me.
SFC
I’m still confused about what to take and when, and would love to know what worked for you.
JF
So it’s O.K. to take 4 tablespoons of oil to equal around 500 calories? I read above it was not healthy to take that much oil. Did I misunderstand?
I have been doing sugar water and oil to equal around 500 calories, but I just re-read everything above to realize I am not suppose to do both, just one or the other. Do you know why you can not do both?
I have the hardest time with hunger after evening supper. Should I take oil then or should it always be before a meal?
Thanks for the help.
jerri,
Some people are using both sugar water and oil (for example, Leftblanc, commenting above).
Please remember that you need to have an hour of non-eating, non-drinking on both sides of taking the sugar water or oil.
The standard routine is to take about 120 to 150 calories in sugar water or oil twice a day, once in the morning, and once in the afternoon. This should take care of evening cravings, according to the diet’s supporters.
If you’re doing this, and it’s not working, maybe it just doesn’t work for you.
http://annhendricksshangrila.blogspot.com/ is still active as well, by the way.
I’d note that this is very much a diet that most people need to test, tweak, and adjust to themselves.
Jerry,
I don’t know of anything that would suggest the oil is less healthy than the sugar water, and based on my reading, it is most likely a healthier choice.
Here’s what has worked for me:
Since my maintenance calorie level is about 2,300+ calories per day, I arbitrarily said no more than 20% to 25% of my calories (about 525 calories) would come from flavorless sources (i.e., sugar water).
When hungry, I sipped sugar water made by dissolving one-third cup of sugar in about 32 oz of water. I would drink up to a total of 64 oz of such sugar water per day. Since each one-third cup of sugar contains about 260 calories, during the course of a day, I would have as many as 520 calories from sugar water. This would almost always have the effect of completely suppressing my appetite until dinner time, sometimes longer, and made it very easy to eat a relatively small dinner. I also noticed my desire to snack after dinner and at bedtime was completely eliminated.
During a typical day on this regimen, I would eat between 1,400 and 1,700 calories (including the sugar water), far below my maintenance level of 2,300 calories, and not be hungry.
At about eight weeks into the process, I switched to the extra light tasting olive oil and have found that to be at least as effective as the sugar water. I will typically have ½ tablespoon of olive oil (60 calories each) as needed to subdue my hunger throughout the day, and will do this up to eight times per day (480 calories).
Some days I will do mostly oil with some sugar water; other days, all oil or all sugar water. As time has gone on and my appetite decreased (presumably due to a lower setpoint), I have needed less oil or sugar water throughout the day. Consequently, on many days, I now have only 250 or 300 calories of oil or sugar water before dinner.
– SFC
Thank you. So you can mix sugar and oil within the same day if you want.
I will try to do just oil because the sugar water tastes good and even rewarding to me. As I understand it, I should not be looking forward to the “tasteless foods.”
I am at 480 calories of tasteless and 1,300 to 1,500 calories of nutrition which is a pretty big decrease in calories for me. I’m a big eater.
I have noticed an improved ability to resist cravings and the feeling of hunger, but I am still feeling hungry between meals and after dinner. It is hard for me not to feel full. I usually eat till I feel completely full.
This has been my first week and I have lost a pound I think.
I asume my cravings and hunger will decrease more and more the longer I am on it. Is this right? Then I will be able to lower calories even more?
I just want to thank you for your commitment to all these people, answering questions and in a timely manner. I am impressed with your desire to help us this way. I have felt hopeless is my struggle with weight and this is giving me some hope.
Thank you.
looking forward to the book to come out.
Jerri,
The first month or so on the diet I was hungry all the time. Don’t let that bother you. The question is whether or not you feel like eating, not whether you are hungry.
And yes, the cravings went away the longer I was on the diet. I do use diet soft drinks when I’m craving something sweet; they seem to work well for me.
I found the oil gave me a pounding headache at about 4 p.m. Will try the sugar water instead.
I found that I had to adjust to the oil, but when I did it went well.
What some people do is start with the sugar water, then take a little oil and wash it down with a little sugar water, and eventually transition over.
I’m hoping the book has a section on transitions and adjustments when it come sout.
It works and it’s easy. I’ve lost 8 pounds in about ten days.
The key to the diet: don’t make it harder than it is. Just follow the directions. It really should work for anyone who tries it, unless of course they are a descendent of someone not of this earth.
I have been using the fructose water method for about three weeks and I am down ten poundssss! (I really like it in hot water, like a fake tea.)
I know this is only possible due to my decrease in appetite at meals. And I rarely munch anymore during the day.
It is especially exciting because I’ve been dealing with a pinched nerve in my back and for the last six weeks have been pretty inactive. So the lack of “boredom eating” is thrilling.
I also seem motivated to make better use of my “inactive time” by organizing, finally putting the photos in albums. etc.
If this is what is happening now, I can’t wait to see what happens when I can start being active again.
Rock on Seth Roberts!
Anyone else notice when you have lost about ten pounds that your desire for certain kinds of food changes?
Before, I craved sugary, caked foods like cookies and cake. Now I’m eating a lot more fruits and vegetables, not because I’m forcing myself to eat these types of food but because that is what I’m craving.
Mark, I know exactly what you mean. I still have the cookies and candy in the pantry and see them all the time, but rarely reach for them. Before I was a slave to my sweet tooth, now I just wave them by.
At dinner we always have a salad now. I usually eat more of that then the other items. I wonder if it is because it is lighter than the proteins and carbs, and it doesn’t give you that stuffed feeling?
By the way, I had a birthday a few days ago, and the leftover cake is still sitting in the fridge. This is crazy thrilling for me!
I still have the cookies and candy in the pantry and see them all the time, but rarely reach for them. Before I was a slave to my sweet tooth. Now I just wave them by.
This is exactly the kind of mental change I’ve noticed.
Just had pizza for dinner. Had one slice, no breadsticks. I’m happy. I’ll drink some water.
At the movies, I may eat two kernels of popcorn, and I’ll be finished with it. It is amazing. The sanity is almost as good as the weight loss.
I’m buying several copies of the book when it comes out for friends and such, and I’m going to encourage Seth to put up a PayPal button so I can just send him the face amount of a book or two to say thank you. I’m hoping others will as well.
I’m just overjoyed with the results.
Stephen M: It looks like from your posts that you use the oil method? Just being curious, why do you do the oil over the fructose? I am having tremendous results with just the fructose water, but if I hit a plateau or something, I want to be prepared to tweak a little.
I just bought some organic canola oil (just in case), as I tried the olive and it had too much flavor to stomach by itself. Of course until it’s broke, I’m not going to fix it. But I like to know why others who are having success as well chose the other route.
And you are right about how the sanity is almost as good as the weight loss. Crazy isn’t it!
I’m a litigator. As a part of that, I end up in depositions and in court. When I was using sugar water, I was drinking two liters of it a day. It worked like a charm, but I was making a lot of trips to the restroom. Not something that makes for good conduct during a jury trial (”Err, judge, I need to take another break, thank you”).
With the olive oil (extra light, not extra virgin), I don’t need to take breaks at all. My skin also isn’t quite as dry.
I loved the sugar water and lost my first ten pounds or so drinking it. I hate the flavor and texture of the olive oil, but it is far better than being fat.
I’m very happy with losing weight, but I want to lose more.
By the way, does anyone know if Seth has a PayPal account I can use to send him money?
Stephen, I had to giggle when you added the part about the potty break and the judge. I have had similar experiences, none as inconvenient as yours I’m sure!
I like the part about your skin not being as dry. This winter and the quick temperature change is killing mine. I’m tempted to try it. Do you still recommend starting by doing half the oil and washing it down with half fructose water? Did you have any weight changes during that transition time (slowed down, remained the same, or don’t remember)?
I don’t know about the PayPal account. Maybe you could make a donation to his research? Contact him at his Berkeley web site.
Thanks for your quick response and advice. It always helps to get a few points of view, and I appreciate it.
I eventually decided to just bite the bullet and take the oil straight (I was taking oil whenever I couldn’t take breaks, if you know what I mean). I was washing it down with a little bit of sugar water, but find that just using water works as well.
Weight loss continued through the transition without any change. But my skin was a lot less dry.
I was taking two tablespoons every morning and two tablespoons every afternoon.
Eventually I cut back to two tablespoons sometime after lunch (between 2:30 and 5:00 — I tend to forget). That continues to work for me, though the weight loss has slowed down a little (though I knew fifteen pounds every thirty days was not going to continue forever).
I’ll look him up at Berkeley — that is a good idea.
I would note that I’ve lost enough weight and kept it off (while slowly losing a pound and a half to two pounds a week) long enough that people are starting to ask about the diet and a few are trying it.
Oh, and remember to take your vitamins and get enough protein.
I am with you on the importance of vitamins (good ones), especially when eating habits change. I am also paying attention to my protein as well.
I usually have half a whole wheat English muffin with natural (fresh ground) peanut butter on it for breakfast (well, it usually becomes “brunch”). For dinner, lean protein and salad works great. I actually haven’t had a burger since I started this. Never felt the need.
I tried a teaspoon of canola oil (organic) the other day in the afternoon when I felt a little munchie (just to see if I could handle it). It is much better then the olive oil. It hardly has any flavor going down or any aftertaste. Still icky (best description) texture, but manageable for those days when the water won’t work.
I am happy for you and what you must feel when people comment on your weight loss. It is a wonderful feeling and a self-confidence booster. I feel it myself each time I call my sister and update her on my loss. Her excitement and encouragement makes a fantastic reward!
I wish you continued success. If you have anymore good tips or advice, please don’t forget to share.
Has the diet worked for you?
My publisher is looking for people who have had success with the diet and will talk to media (TV, newspapers, and magazines) about it.
If you might be willing to tell your story, please contact me at twoutopias@gmail.com or 1 (510) 418-7753.
Count me in, Seth. See your e-mail.
I’m going on three weeks faithfully, and I havent lost a pound yet. My appettite hasn’t suppressed yet either.
Does anyone think using canola oil only makes a difference. I have tried adjusting to 2 tablespoons twice a day and a dose before I go to bed, but nothing!
I use smokeless tobacco during the day at work. Could that make a difference?
Are you eating or drinking anything one hour before or one hour after you take the oil?
No, not even water. But I do use tobacco during that time.
It must be the tobacco. You are getting taste with the calories, which according to the theory behind the diet will negate the effect. I am convinced this diet will work for anyone.
You will notice a decrease in hunger almost immediately. That will lead to a reduction in the number of calories you consume. First, you will notice that you don’t snack and aren’t hungry between meals. Then you will start eating less at meals. But the effect is almost immediate.
It seems like Mark is right about the tabacco. It has a flavor, so it must be triggering your desire for food. Try to lay off the tabacco during that one hour before and after the oil just for a day or two and pay attention to the effects. See if it makes the difference.
Also, you could try the fructose water. Maybe that’ll help. The decrease in hunger was immediate for me. From day one it was obvious.
Good luck.
Mike, if you are out there, have you had any success with the changes?
Laying off the tobacco, I have noticed I have hardly any hunger pangs and can go all day without eating until dinner (just drinking fluids). I have lost only a pound in the past three days though.
I will keep going, of course.
Mike, that is great. Think about it, that’s two or three pounds a week! It adds up fast. Plus your body might take time to let go of the weight. My biggest loss was in the second or third week.
I am no expert, but I recommend eating a little something during the day as well. I usually have half an english muffin with a little peanut butter an hour or two after my morning sugar water. And I always have a low sugar protien bar with me and half of that usually works on the run.
Anyway, Im glad your appetite has decreased. Keep up the great work!
I’m down to 198 this morning, from 240 on November 13.
Funny how many people do not get the “no taste” — such as suggesting washing down the olive oil with a Diet Coke, or taking a snack of air-popped popcorn with it. Or taking a dose with their meals so they can add a little garlic salt and eat it with bread.
Never works that way.
On the other hand, suddenly everyone I work with notices. I’m convinced that I need to just buy five or six copies of the book. I talked with Seth again and tried to get his PalPay account ID so I could send him money and he turned me down.
But I think that most people just don’t get it without more than the 50 second executive summary.
I’m down to two tablespoons of olive oil, once a day, sometime in the afternoon. I started at 2:00 sharp, moved to 2:30, and now it is sometime before I leave the office for home. I just make sure not to taste anything, even a breath mint, for an hour afterwards.
I’ve been meaning to experiment, but I’m not willing to do that until I’ve lost all the weight I want to lose. I’ll try experimentation when I’m on maintenance.
The real keys are diligence and dedication. From what I read, and have read, people who stick with the diet on a rigid schedule for at least a week, start seeing real results that continue until they slide off of it, if they do. Those that try “a day here, a day there” don’t do so well.
I also found that it took a week or so for my body to get used to the sugar water. And about two weeks to get used to the olive oil. I’m still not used to the taste of it, so I use a plastic medicine cup (one from cold medicine) that has a two tablespoon line and toss it down the back of my throat, washing it down with some water so I don’t actually taste it any more.
For food I eat fixed portions of yogurt with a sandwich for lunch and dinner, eggs and toast, no butter, for breakfast. When I realized how few calories lunch meat can have (40 calories for two slices of low fat ham from Costco), I switched to that for my sandwiches. I also take vitamins. My concern was to get enough protein, and that was how I put my food plan together.
I’m eating non-fat yogurt (I like the taste), several brands, blended together with a little sugar. I find I like yogurt better if I mix different kinds.
I’m doing weight lifting, judo twice a week, and walking for exercise. My chest is currently at 43″, my waist is now at 36″ measured by Wranglers pants (time to buy a couple more pair and retire the 38″ pants that kind of droop on me).
Anyway, that is my update.
My wife and kids are delighted.
I’d also suggest http://oa.org for support. I find that helps mentally with the feelings of weight loss.
Fantastic, Stephen!
I’m looking forward to needing a new wardrobe as well. But for now, I’m thrilled with the jeans I wore last night (one size smaller, the ones I wore last winter).
Good luck.
Fantastic! I’ve been putting two handfuls of palm oil on my afternoon pizza for a month now, and now my scale just says "–000–"!
Thanks, CalorieLab!
(And happy April 1!)
Hi all: If you have questions or would like to catch up with Seth and what he is doing, check out his forum.
The more people we get on there, the more information we can all share.
Good Luck to all.
Neat. I need to add a link to his forum from this post, where I blogged on this last.
I am thinking of trying the Shangri-La Diet and I have a question. I drink lots of diet soda during the day.
Are there any restrictions with diet soda on this diet?
Thanks, Shari
Shari: you can’t have any flavor — including diet sodas with flavor, for an hour before or after … people who have tried drinking diet coke (for example) at the same time as the oil or sugar water have not had good results.
My review of the book is at:
http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2006/04/strange-thing-about-dr.html
[Here it is. -- Editor]
Great, you got the review, so I can take it down and put a link in its place. Thanks!
I did my San Francisco Chronicle interview today, and they loved your site, by the way.
The one on my blog now links to the official review and doesn’t have the text.
Has anyone reached their goal yet?
How does this work once you do? Are you still taking the water or oil, or have you stopped? Does this cause you to gain the weight back? How quickly?
I am ordering the book today from B&N, and plan to start this next week. I find that my husband’s eating patterns affect mine, so I’m waiting till he goes back to work, since he travels 5 days a week.
Thanks!
I am 139 pounds and 5 feet 5 inches. I have gained about 10 or 15 pounds in the last year and would like to go back to my ideal weight of 125.
As I am aware I would not be considered to be obese, I wonder if this diet also works for people wanting to reach their ideal weight (which is usually the last 5 to 10 pounds to loose with any diet). Or does it only work if you have to loose much more than that.
Does anyone know?
Also, I have read in various blogs that after a few weeks of taking the oil option, their skin is not so dry. As I tend to have oily skin, would that mean that it would get oilier if I get started on the oil option?
I look forward to your response.
Thanks!
Want-to-know-more,
We’re not sure what Dr. Roberts would say, but we would point out that in the article above we noted that Dr. Roberts says that he actually got too thin, and had to scale back his dosage after friends told him he looked unhealthy.
On the other hand, pioneer diet book author Dr. Lulu, in the early 20th century, wrote that dieters are sure to confront jealous friends and husbands who felt more comfortable with the status quo, and will tell the dieter “she is starting to look sickly or old.”
Regarding the last five pounds: I’m 6 feet 1 inch, and my starting weight was 183 or 184 pounds. My original target weight before starting the Shangri-La Diet was 165 pounds. I reached that, no problem. Then I decided 160 pounds was better, and I am just below that now. I would say that the approach has been very helpful for me for both the first 20 pounds and the last 5 pounds.
Regarding CalorieLab’s Dr. Lulu comment: I know that CalorieLab has been skeptical of Seth Robert’s approach, and I am very rational and skeptical by nature, too. That said, in my experience, there is something impressively effective about this diet. I am swayed — not just by my own (anecdotal) experience — but by some of the other relevant research (Cabanac, Sclafani, et al.) that Roberts references in his “What Makes Food Fattening” paper and the Shangri-La Diet book.
Hi. I am really interested in doing this diet.
I was just wondering if I could take the sugar water at nighttime before I eat dinner, consuming the 250 to 300 calories in one glass of water, rather than having it once in the morning and once in the afternoon.
During the day I tend to eat healthy, but it’s at night after dinner that I go for the chips, ice cream, candy, etc.
Thanks.
Desiree,
Try it, and see if it works. It needs to be at least an hour separated from dinner or any eating.
Dr. Roberts recommends two times a day in his book unless you’re taking just a small dose. But it’s not like taking a drug where it has immediate effectiveness and wears off in a few hours. Doing it a couple times a day at any time should reduce your appetite consistently 24 hours a day, according to Dr. Roberts. So there’s no need to go out of your way to do it before periods when you tend to be hungry.
Hi,
A previous diet I tried included not consuming any processed sugar. I also limited my fruit intake to one apple, which I would consume midmorning. In a month a lost four pounds. As such, I am reluctant to try the sugar water because I feel that my body is sensitive to sugar. Would this diet be effective with just the consumption of the olive oil?
Thanks.
Yes, just as effective with olive oil.
This is a great way to lose weight.
I have lost seven kilograms (15 pounds) in two weeks. I take, every day, Enshallah:
CalorieLab — I don’t know if you are one warm and patient person or several, but I am impressed. No matter how many times you are asked the same question, you gently reply. Bravo (brava?) for you!
Your thoughtful comments and explanations have convinced me that I have nothing to lose by trying this appetite adjustment aid. I am reluctant to go on diets of any kind and have been trying to simply improve the sort of food I eat.
But really, other than a few too many starches when I run out of fruit and vegetables (it’s a long walk to the grocery store) what I actually consume is healthy food. My problem is that craving for food and my experiment just now has demonstrated that indeed I can put off eating a little while by taking the oil or sugar water.
Two points:
First a question: Are there any special measures a hypoglycemic should be aware of here? I know that if I go too long without food, I get very light-headed and things can go awry. But perhaps the oil would help there. the trick is to not get carried away with paring down real food intake if the appetite truly does peter out, I would think. I know I can get a little carried away in either direction, over- or undereating.
Second thing is an observation. Recently my doctor recommended that I begin taking 1-2 tablespoons a day of Udo’s 3-6-9 oil blend, or at least flax or some other omega-whatsity oil. This was not because of weight concerns, but because I’ve been experiencing an overall drying out of my skin.
You don’t heat this oil, but add it to your food once the food is cooked, or put it in salad dressing, etc. I eat a fair bit of fried vegetables and so on, so I was a bit leery of adding more oil to my meal. To my surprise, I found that I felt much more satisfied after these meals. It was as if my body longed to slurp up this oil, that the oil I used to fry with (combo canola and extra virgin olive) did not address whatever need this other oil served. I’ve never experienced anything quite like it.
I therefore girded my loins and took the Udo’s oil in a tablespoon to begin today’s experiment on the road to Shangri-La. The idea revolted me, and I had to check the urge to be disgusted when the oil hit. I sipped it — four or five sips for the whole tablespoon. I gradually realized that it wasn’t so bad, and within a few minutes my tummy did indeed feel much happier than it had.
I think the point for me is that whether this diet aid works or not, there is something my body wants that it is getting out of a serving of healthy, uncooked oil. so I am glad that it was oil and not something else that was suggested here, like raw eggs. Bleh!
Cheers,
Casey
I know Seth says it is hard to answer whether this will work for emotional eaters. I was wondering if anyone was an emotional overeater who tried this diet? In other words, those who eat when frustrated, stressed, bored, or even happy.
Sorry if this has been asked already. I tried to scan the entire list.
Much thanks,
Arlene
Casey,
If you have blood sugar problems, you should definitely let your doctor know what you’re doing.
As for the Uno’s flax oil, how well it fits with the Shangri-La Diet theory depends on how close it is to being tasteless. And any effect you may have had from adding it to food is outside the realm of Dr. Roberts’s diet, which requires an hour buffer of no eating on each side of taking the oil so the body can sense the calories without associating them with taste.
Hi! I am a 19-year-old, 150-pound skinny guy. I’ve found myself hungry and eating all day every day only to never gain a pound.
I tried the Shangri-La Diet for one day, and after my first meal I went until nightfall before I was hungry again. To me this was a great relief from the constant attack of hunger that not even Snickers could satisfy.
I will be attempting to weight train for a month (something I haven’t done for many years) while continuing this diet. I assume that if my body can compensate with the need for extra food to build muscle then there couldn’t possibly be anything wrong with this environmentally sound diet.
And why is it that at every turn people are trying to “dis” this diet? Could it be because a diet you can do with natural ingredients you find in your house would make doctors lose money? No! Of course not! If doctors were truly looking to help people This method would have be thoroughly tested on a large scale instead of just one man who is trying to make the world a better place and has to write a book because no one wants him to succeed.
Well, I say good on him for trying to make the world a better place. And if your skeptical I highly recommend you try this diet. If it doesn’t work, then at least you didn’t put a bunch of unknown ingredients in pill form into your body.
Hi!
I’ve really enjoyed reading up on this diet off this site. I never heard about the diet until my husband told me it was on the news the other night. He thought I should look it up because I need to lose weight.
I was 159 last summer and I am now 179. Not good! I really crave cookies, etc.
Does anyone have any advice for me? So, What should I do to get started? want to start today. Thanks in advance for your advice.
Tara
Well, I just read about this diet today and am encouraged by the posts here and elsewhere. I think I am going to try it starting the hour before lunch with the sugar and the water. I don’t think I can do the oil.
Anyway, I’ll post results. Just as an FYI I am extremely overweight and nothing has worked. I am 5 feet, 9 inches and, well, let’s just say very heavy. I always feel miserable, mentally and physically. I don’t like to take medication. Luckily, my blood pressure, heart, and my entire physical being is picture perfect according to my doctor — except for the freakin’ weight thing.
So, this will be a very good experiment.
Thanks.
Will post back on May 8, though I must say that since I’m so heavy I can’t find a scale that works for me, so it’ll have to be a “body mass,” feel good, clothes feeling better, subjective sort of weigh-in.
I’m a little unclear as to how much oil can be consumed in a day?
I’m currently reading the book and do not quite understand the doses per day needed (of suger water or oil) to lose 40 pounds or more. Can someone please help me out?
Thank you,
Cynthia
This is a joke, right? This is simply a resticted calorie diet made worse by the inclusion of several hundred non-nutritive calories.
I personally rarely feel hunger and believe many others are the same way. Eating is a coping mechanism for dealing with stress, depression, boredom, etc.
People who try this may lose weight while they stick to it, but how many will?
Hey guys,
Well, I watched the news a few days ago and noticed this Shangri-La Diet by Seth. I figured there must be some reviews on the site and here they are! I am 22, have been a bodybuilder in the past for 2 years on, 2 years off, and then last month I started again.
I am back to a ritual routine, running 8 to 12 laps every other day, on opposing days. I do one hour to 90 minutes of very exerting weightlifting routines, not for mass build but definition (i.e., more repetitions lower weight, but very strenuous).
Anyway, during my off-time for the past two years I was not training (very depressing). I gained 10 pounds and lost, I would say, about 10 pounds of lean muscle mass, so I gained maybe 20 pounds of fat.
In the process, however, this I quit smoking 2 months ago. So I gained an additional 5 pounds, putting me at 25 pounds of fat above my desired level.
I run every other day. I run in the morning, before I eat as in the Body for Life book. The author advises that the best time to loose weight is on an empty stomach, the only time you are really burning off pure fat. So I jog/run (based on how I feel) for 8 to 12 laps in the morning before work, and then do not eat for an hour following. This time frame is when your metabolism is heightened from running.
I can do this. But it seems since I quit smoking I replaced my smoking cravings with food cravings.
So I may be losing that weight every other day, but I am compensating for it by eating more, in the evenings especially. I always had a problem with a balanced diet. I can control my eating early in the day but not when I get home.
This irresistible urge in the evening comes where I just, like a robot, go to the fridge and eat, constantly, perhaps 1,200 or more calories from 5 to 10 p.m. It is purely mental, and I have no control over it. Crazy.
How can I quit smoking, wake up a half hour before work and run for four or so kilometers on an empty stomach, wait an hour before eating, and yet have no ability to control my mental state in the late evenings and just stop eating?
I refuse to use diet pills. I did two years ago to get lean and they are just bad.
Anyone in a similar position to my frame of mind who can give me some reassurances from their successes?
Thanks!
Art,
By nature, I am very skeptical. I am also strongly predisposed towards reason, empirical evidence, and the application of science to fundamental questions.
Having read Seth’s original paper that preceded this book, and taken time to understand his theory, I thought it was worth a try, and so I subjected myself to an experiment — that being his Shangri-La Diet.
For me, it has worked amazingly well, and I’ve easily lost 25 pounds. In addition to having lost a considerable amount of weight, my grocery bill has literally been cut in half. I have had no problem maintaining the approach.
You are correct that this is a restricted calorie approach, but the calorie restriction, in my case and the many others I have read about, comes from a significant lack of or reduction in appetite.
If you are looking to lose weight, try putting aside any skepticism for a week or two and see if it works for you. Although it’s possible that this approach won’t work for you (nothing works all of the time), the large number of blog postings I have read, and my personal experience, give me a great deal of confidence that it very likely will.
All Shangri-La Diet articles have been collected together in their own category.
This is for Casey:
casey (May 1st, 2006 at 4:51 p.m.) says:
May I suggest that you talk to your doctor?
Hmmm. I’ll have to ask my doctor about this! Thanks for mentioning it.
To John Duguay:
I know that feeling! And I just wanted to add that enough sugar-water stops the urge to go to the fridge in the evening.
I think what happens is that when I eat familiar food with calories and flavor, my body says to itself, “This is feast food! Turn up the appetite, eat and store fat, because famine is just around the corner.”
The sugar-water acts as famine food (calories with no flavor), so my body says, “This is famine food! Turn down the appetite and burn my stored fat, because who knows when feast-time will come.”
I suggest that you try taking the suga -water one hour before/after any food/drink (plain water is okay all the time).
Here’s my daily routine for burning fat:
If you don’t immediately start losing weight, then increase the amount of sugar. I know this sounds strange, but the more sugar, the less appetite.
Hope this helps,
Cheryl
Would the sugar substitute stevia work? It tastes very sweet, but there would be fewer calories in a liter of water.
I’ve been taking cod liver oil daily, but always ate something right afterwards to get the oily feeling out of my mouth . Now I’ll just swish with water.
I’ve yo-yoed over the years, and Atkins was the main success, but now it’s much harder. A low thyroid isn’t helping. I hope this diet is the answer.
Jerash,
In my interpretation of Dr. Roberts’s theory, to the extent that the sweetness of stevia is sensed by the body as the same sort of “tasteless” sweetness that regular sugar has, it might work.
But the stevia needs to deliver a sufficient number of calories for the body to sense the “tasteless calories,” so you would need to increase the dosage of stevia until it reached the 150 or more calories per dose that you would get from sugar.
Since you would need to use more of it, and it costs more than sugar, why not just try sugar? If you want to avoid sugar for medical reasons, go with tasteless oil.
I think the key is to not think too much at this point, and just follow the instructions. Don’t unnecessarily increase the number of variables. Before trying to improve the diet, first figure out if the current form of the diet even works for you.
I heard about this diet on the Dennis Prager show today, but I only heard the last five minutes of the show.
I am unsure of exactly when to take the sugar or oil. I thought Dennis said to take an hour after a meal. but this site says a hour before meals. Which is correct?
This sounds like just what I need to supress my appetite.
James,
The Shangri-La Diet theory is that if you give your body calories unassociated with any taste, it will lower its set point.
So the calories should be taken between meals, separated from any eating or drinking (other than water) by an hour each side.
Cheryl,
Thank you for analyzing my post and giving your thoughts. As I can see, we have similarities in how we eat. So I am ending day one on the diet.
I will use the water in the evenings as you said. But between lunch and dinner, I am using the 2 tablespoons of oil. Phew, that’s a strange thing to swallow.
I will update in a few weeks just to spill a bit of my progress with the crowd here who reads this. So please in turn do the same. I am interested to hear your results from the diet.
In the past I tried Atkins, which worked. But I felt a very low energy level throughout my day and I still had “the hunger.” So I quit that.
I tried the original ECA stack for cutting pre-summer three years ago, and it works. As of, I believe, 2 years ago it has now been removed from the market, but it’s still the platform for the most effective diet pills, which use the ingredients and substitute the ephedrine with other compounds. for cutting pre summer 3 years ago and it works. It suppresses your hunger almost completely.
However, like any diet pill, as soon as you go off the cycle, your body’s metabolism seems to have a memory of how you used to be before you took the pills in the first place. For people who read up on Seth’s terms, it would be your “set point.”
You revert to that exact weight within a short time after you go off the diet pills. I tried it three times, lost 10 pounds and gained it back at the end of the two month cycle plus training.
After my mixed diet efforts in the past this one at least is coming from an approach which is appealing and a little motivating after reading some of your successes. So wish me luck at 25 pounds.
Neat to see the new comments. I was at 52 pounds lost this morning and just wanted to check back in to see how others were doing.
Stephen
http://ethesis.blogspot.com/
Hello there.
I read about this new diet on Tuesday the 2nd during my morning office read time. I decided to try it. So far, so good.
I’m pretty heavy, so it’s difficult to weight myself. I’m going to have to go by clothes fit and general feelings. Trust me, I’ll know. But unless I go to a truck stop and weigh myself I’ll never know exactly.
Anyway, I’m following the procedure as outlined above. One pint of water one hour before lunch and dinner with three tablespoons of sugar seems to be working. I don’t know if it’s power of suggestion or not, but so far, so good. I’m not hungry and not snacking. I almost, yes I said almost, didn’t finish my lunch yesterday. Hey — it’s not a miracle drug, but I’m doing so much better.
I’ll post again on Tuesday the 9th as I’m going away for three days. I plan on continuing the program. Hey, it’s free, easy, and low, low maintenance. I’m not a pill popper. I don’t even like taking aspirin. This will work for me if it works.
Even though I’m overweight (lots), my yearly physical doctor claims my blood work, cholesterol, heart rate, and EKG should be a poster in his office for everyone else to hit as a target, if you can believe that!
Thanks.
I am 5 feet, 4 inches and 120 pounds, with a voracious appetite. I have to consume no more than 1,600 to 1,800 calories a day to maintain my current weight.
I am wondering if I tried this plan if I could more comfortably maintain my desired weight? Currently it is a struggle, and I end up bingeing and gaining and then starving again.
My concern is whether in lowering my set point I might have to eat fewer calories than I do now to maintain. I love food, and wouldn’t want to have to resort to 1,200 calories a day to maintain, even without hunger, if that makes any sense.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Sweetie
Sweetie,
I think the answer is yes. With the Shangri-La Diet, you could more comfortably maintain your current weight.
What I like about the diet is that I can choose to (1) under-eat (to burn fat), or (2) eat to maintain my weight, or (3) overeat (to eat up leftovers, eat special meals, etc.).
I control my appetite instead of it controlling me!
I suggest that you try it, then weigh yourself each day at the same time and record your weight.
I like to write down the time I finish eating breakfast (foods/drinks which contain flavor), then I can be sure that I’ve waited an hour to drink sugar water. After drinking the sugar-water, I record the time I finished, then wait an hour to eat lunch. An hour later, I drink the sugar water again and note the time I finished.
I drink plain water at any time.
Hope this helps,
Cheryl
Hey Cheryl:
I asked Dr. Roberts (via his forum) if he has any statisticss on the difference between using oil and sugar. He didn’t.
Has anyone out there reported any differences using either all sugar or all oil or both? I’m curious about that, because anything sweet just makes me want to eat more sweets.
I bought the book today and I’m going to try ELOO and see how that goes.
It’s quite interesting to read his academic works, I encourage others to do that. You may find them through a Google Scholars search.
Thanks!
Widget in Washington, D.C.
Cheryl,
Thanks so much for your response.
I know for people who have a lot to lose at the moment, this may seem like an insignificant issue,. But I think we all realize that maintenance can be even harder than the weight loss stage.
And with all the years I’ve messed with my metabolism, I would hate to do anything to slow things down. So I have to be more diligent about calories. Although I know that that is now considered controversial, as far as the validity of dieting slowing it measurably.
I will take your advice and just try the oil once a day and see if the appetite regulation works enough to maintain without fighting hunger all day, and especially night.
As one who has been controlled by food on many levels for decades, both due to a huge physical appetite and emotional eating issues, the idea of being in control is thrilling.
Thanks to everyone here who has added their much more than two cents! I do have the book, but enjoy real life experience and specific answers via this wonderful site.
Sweetie
Widget,
If you look at the postings here and at Annie’s Shangri-La Diet Blog you’ll see a lot of people who’ve tried oil, or sugar water or both. Even raw eggs!
I haven’t gotten the impression that one is more effective than the rest. Some people can tolerate swallowing the sugar water better than oil or raw eggs, while others tolerate the oil better.
I love sweets. I eat chocolate along with protein and vitamins and minerals for breakfast. Chocolate has caffeine in it, so if I’m going to eat chocolate, it has to be in the morning so I can get to sleep at night.
But after I drink the sugar water, it turns down my appetite so that I don’t want to eat sweets or anything else.
I’ve read Dr. Roberts’ academic works too, and they are worth the effort to understand. I had to read and reread to get the concepts.
Have a good day,
Cheryl
To: John Duguay
Have you tried doing something — anything — differently in the afternoon and evening during the critical time? Scrubbing floors, running again, going to a meeting (that is what addicts do), or simply anything that places you away from those calories and busys you like you were during the day?
Good luck. You seem terrifically proactive!
ally
Ok, so I’m in.
I’m also very skeptical, and not one to try fad dieting. But after reading everything I could, I figured I’d give it a shot. The worst that could happen is I eat some extra sugar or oil, hardly harmful to me.
Basically, I’m a single 22-year-old 270-pound guy (at 5 feet, 7-1/2 inches). I have a very busy lifestyle, work almost two full jobs (one volunteer), and so I have little precious time to actually cook meals. That led to my eating fast food regularly, gaining the weight with little work.
Recently I tried altering my diet to include more cooked meals, and lost a bit of weight. However, due to my schedule I can’t cook creatively and am left to eating the same thing over and over again, which has resulted in my gaining it all back.
I’m lethargic and tired a lot, and have little desire to exercise with the extra weight I have.
After researching the Shangri-La Diet, I’ve concluded this may be due to the taste-storage response by eating the same things almost every day.
Interestingly enough, I eat very little volume-wise, and only take in about 2,200 calories or less per day (less than I should be burning). So really the only way I go wrong is by eating the same foods regularly, and eating them from restaurants.
I don’t really emotionally eat or eat from boredom, so those aren’t variables I have.
I will be blogging my progress (linked on my name), and starting the game tomorrow.
I’ve not seen anybody really report that’s been as big as I (though I carry it well), so it will be interesting to see if it affects larger people, and even more interesting to see if it works for those of us who can’t cook regularly and must resort to the local fare of the Taco Bell.
I will probably be starting with a few tablespoons of sugar in water twice per day, and adjust accordingly.
I’m also working on my sleeping habits, and hope to adjust those in order to be able to start a cardio routine in the early morning before work too.
Here’s hoping that something this simple can adjust things correctly.
And like I said, if not, then I’ve wasted maybe an hour of time, about 2 bucks on sugar, and thoughts that I wouldn’t have to suck it up and diet/exercise heavily.
Has anyone experienced any nausea or headaches? I started Wednesday. It is Thursday, and I felt serious vertigo this morning.
I ate breakfast, waited two hours, took oil, waited one hour, and drank coffee. Once I had the coffee I was fine, but until then I was not so good.
Rag,
I was sick to my stomach on extra light olive oil today, as well. I am new to the diet. This is my first day. I’ve had no headaches and no vertigo.
I am switching to the sugar water this afternoon. I have very high hopes!
ally
When people lose weight, are they losing mostly fat, water, or muscle? I’m curious if people feel like the are losing fat and notice that their bodies look a lot more toned.
Second question: Did this diet have any effect on energy level?
My energy level stayed the same and then increased. Since I weight train and now play judo, I’m very aware of whether or not I’m losing muscle, and so far, my strength has continued to increase.
At fifty-two pounds of loss, not all of it is water loss.
I’ve been on the diet for a week and a half now. I write about my experiences here.
I want to thank everyone who has posted their experiences thus far. I just bought the book last night and my first bottle of ELOO today, so we’ll see what happens.
Question: Any yo-yo dieters out there trying this technique? Over the past 15 years I’ve gone from 135 to 172 three times now. Eeeek. I’ve also posted to Seth to find out what that does to my poor set point, which may be confused beyond repair by now! I hope not.
Anyway, thanks again all. I’ll also post my progress. Right now I’m a 45-year-old woman, in good physical shape, 158 lbs, but I feel best around 140.
Widget, my yo-yo dieting tracks yours. But I’ve probably done it four or five times, counting the considerable weight gained and lost with two pregnancies. I’ll be interested in Seth’s reply also.
I started the Shangri-La Diet on Sunday and have lost six pounds this week.
I was using canola oil but bought some ELOO last night and will switch over to it today. My hunger is gone, and I had to force myself to finish dinner last night in order to make sure I took in enough calories for good health.
I am 50 years old, 5 feet, 5 inches, and in good health. I was 183.6 pounds on Sunday, 177.6 this morning, and need to be at 150 for a decent BMI, but I would like to see 140 again.
Wow, jzkc, that’s great. Just curious, are you exercising at all? I’ve been working out on and off for about two years, but I have tried to commit to at least once every-other-day for several months now.
Since people keep asking similar questions, I will try to describe the diet as I understand it. Correct me if I’m wrong.
You have a choice of drinking sugar water or drinking oil. You should drink sugar water or the oil, twice a day. People have chosen different times to drink. Some people drink before meals and some drink after. There isn’t a right or wrong way.
You are also given a range of calories for sugar water or oil to choose from, so people have slightly different ratios of water to sugar or different amounts of oil they drink. People are encouraged to try what works for them but keep within the range of calories suggested.
The key to the whole diet is to have two hours of drinking nothing but water. Nothing really means nothing (no breath mint , no coffee, no tea, no sugarless gum, no smoking, etc.) — except for water. In the middle of this two hour period you should drink your sugar water or oil. Tthat means you need to drink it after the first hour has passed. You should do this twice a day. So two hours of this in the morning and two hours in the late afternoon or early evening.
Everything else in your life should be the same. You don’t have to modify anything else.
Hopefully that should clear up any problems.
I tried the diet for one week. Actually, five days.
I tried the sugar water first, but could not tolerate it. So I switched to canola oil, one tablespoon at 11, then a small lunch at 12:30, more oil at 3:00, and finally dinner at 5:00.
After four days I gained three pounds. I’m going back to low calorie intake and biking. I can’t afford to experiment as my weight goes up.
I guess it works for some. I never noticed any change in appetite, and I have been on a very healthy Zone type diet for the last three years, but have slipped some lately.
I wish somehow staying thin was easier.
Janice
Widgit: I usually walk two or three days a week and do a light workout at a fitness center a couple days a week. But because of extra work hours lately, I haven’t done anything in the past two weeks. I hope to get back to walking some this weekend and next week.
That is really the key.
Also, everyone I’ve seen who was anorexic who tried the diet gained weight (5 feet, 5 inches, 100 pounds, to anorexic), which seems strange.
Though it is too much to hope it will work for everyone.
[...] Calorie lab isn’t conviced. As they point out, this is a calorie-restriction diet. They call that “unnatural”. I would agree it is unnatural as long as you are fighting your natural hunger. If you just aren’t hungry, it is natural to reduce your intake of calories. So let’s see how it goes. [...]
Hey everybody. I discovered this diet by stumbling on this thread. Today is day 1 for me trying it.
Like Dave, I’m 22 and more overweight than most of the posters here, somewhere in the upper 200’s at 5 feet, 7 inches. I’ve been overweight almost my entire life, and I know that this type of obesity is usually even more closely tied to set-point weight than the type that sets in after children or middle age.
Oil seems easier than sugar for right now, though I wonder if one will work better based on what type of snacks people lean toward (i.e., sugar might curb cravings better if you tend to nosh on cookies, oil for cheese junkies like me). I also didn’t feel like running out to the store for canola so I used generic vegetable, which seemed to fit the tasteless qualifier (are there other differences I should know about?).
One question for Stephen M:
What does that mean? To me, being hungry is the same thing as feeling like eating. If one happens, the other invariably happens.
Also, a hypothetical:
Your body knows what foods bring what kinds of nutrients. Since this diet tricks your body into consuming fewer calories, and a smaller percentage of your calories are nutritious, if you continued eating the same proportion of junk food, you wouldn’t get all the nutrition you need. You could do this diet and eat only cake, and you might lose weight, but you’d be malnourished. So your body craves x and tells your brain to eat y (where x is a lacking vitamin, mineral, amino acid, grain, etc., and y is a food that contains x).
So anyway, wish me luck, I’ll check in with progress every once in a while.
And thanks to all the people who spent a good deal of time nitpicking this diet before I got here so I already have so much information to work with.
Well, all I can say is that the two can be vastly different.
After all, I’ve had lots of times when I wasn’t hungry, sometimes bloated even, and I still felt like eating. I had that large pizza, but there was more left, and I was just waiting for everyone else to finish so I could eat the leftovers.
I sure wasn’t hungry, but I sure felt like eating.
The same thing, but in reverse. Now hunger fits more naturally.
I started on the diet about a week ago. I am finding that I seem to feel full faster and am eating less and more carefully. But whether this is due to the diet at all can be questioned. I need to upgrade the amount of oil I am taking in, as I was using a teaspoon instead of a tablespoon, two in the morning, one at night.
I am going to give the diet at least another week or so before passing judgment on it. For now, I am taking it seriously, and giving it a crack.
And I did use a water chaser for the extra lite olive oil. It helped.
I’ve been on it eight days. It took a week to noticeably kick in for me and I’ve seen that be true for others, so don’t give up too soon.
I’m not skipping meals yet, but I fill up way faster and stay full a lot longer. And having four hours throughout the day when I’m not snacking on Coke or candy bars or, well, anything, sure doesn’t hurt.
I pulled in my belt a notch already, so that’s one sign.
Here’s my best tip for the oil, which I find surprisingly almost tasteless: take a half-mouthful of water, tilt your head back, pour in the tablespoon of oil, and swallow. It goes right down the throat and doesn’t touch the tongue, so there’s no taste at all. The trick is to keep the oil off your tongue. Chase it with another mouthful of water because, hey, when is water not good for you?
May 10, 2006
Help! I have gained two pounds after six days. I am so discouraged. Last night for dinner, I was waiting for this miracle of a small appetite to kick in, but no, it didn’t happen.
Please, I need encouragement that I can affect my set point. How long shall I keep at this? I was so hopeful until today.
Thank you for any reply or encouragement I will receive.
Am I missing something? What is so hard to understand about stirring three or four tablespoons of sugar into a liter of water two or three times a day, drinking it down, then waiting an hour before putting something in your mouth?
I started two days ago, and while I get hungry, I am satisfied with much smaller portions. I didn’t polish off the chips — had a couple and was done. I ate two crackers with cheese instead of six.
I’ve promised myself not to get on the scale for a full week. I can’t wait to see it go down.
Darlene,
My second week brought disappointment too. Try adjusting the amount of oil or sugar water, and above all keep exercising!
This is the end of my second week, and I am back on track with a total of six pounds gone.
On another note, don’t even think of looking at the scale if you are experiencing PMS or other hormone related swings.
Thank You Lyn,
I am going to hang in there another week.
I have been taking 1 tablespoon and 1 teaspoon of the designated oil twice a day. Last night I swithched to sugar water. I shall get back to regular exercise and see what happen.
Your advice and encouragement really help. I shall see if I can turn this around.
Exercise is great, and we recommend it for many reasons. We also recommend weighing yourself one time every day, PMS or not (recognizing that there will be fluctuations).
But none of this is part of the Shangri-La Diet. The Shangri-La Diet is simply supposed to reduce your appetite so you eat less, with or without exercise, as 2 million years of evolutionary conditioning force your body inexorably to try to get to a lower weight that matches your body’s new, lowered set point.
That’s the theory. If your appetite is not reduced on the Shangri-La Diet, then the theory might not be working for you.
I have been doing this “diet” since Monday, three tablespoons sugar in water twice per day. I am impressed that it works.
I put diet in quotes because it is not a diet in the traditional sense. It does seem to suppress appetite in an odd way.
I found that by the afternoon of the second day, I was no longer hungry or craving snacks. By the third day, I was having to remind myself to eat because I was getting weak. That is, by 1 p.m., with no breakfast (other than coffee and then sugar water) and after a lot of physical exercise, I was not hungry. But I could feel that I needed feed.
This is a creepy feeling. I have had that everyday since (it is Friday).
I do not snack anymore, although I used to all the time. I eat a normal dinner and a small lunch now. I have lost six pounds, too much for a week, but have been drinking a lot of water. I know it is not water loss since my Tanita scale shows water percent.
Whether it continues to work or is a placebo effect, I cannot yet say. But it is quite impressive so far. What is even weirder than the appetite effect is that I want more vegetables when I do eat! I may want to start my kids on this.
My only concern is whether there are health issues with sugar water, insulin response, or the like. I wonder if that has been considered. I am using sucrose rather than fructose because fructose without protein and fiber has associations with diabetes due to insulin response. But sucrose is not great.
But I cannot stomach the thought of drinking oil.
Darlene,
Hang in there!
I’ve found that even with this diet technique, I still need to burn more calories than I eat.
The sugar water makes it easier to eat less at other times.
A question: would fish oil do? It’s about 40 calories per tablespoon. I thought it might be good for other things, too.
Has anyone had any luck with this?
Shang,
The oil needs to be tasteless, unless you are somehow able to bypass your tongue and nose and squirt it directory down your esophagus.
Fish oil, like all oil, is about 40 calories per teaspoon, about 125 calories per tablespoon (one tablespoon equals three teaspoons equals half an ounce).
Paul,
I started in September with very, very good results. I lost all of my initial goal weight and then some, 25 pounds.
I also noticed a marked increase in my appetite for vegetables, especially salad.
Regarding fructose and sucrose, it is my understanding that sucruose has a considerably higher glycemic index than fructose. So sucrose causes a much sharper increase in insulin levels.
Seth Robers on his website and forum also makes this point and says, for that reason, fructose is probably a better choice, especially for longterm use. But in the book he recommends sucrose over fructose just because it’s easier for most people to get their hands on. Ideally, though, he really recommends the oil since it avoids the insulin issue altogether.
– SFC
Yes, judging from the slightly deranged zeal in his expression here, Dr. Roberts does seem to really recommend the olive oil:
(Or perhaps the facial expression is due to insulin shock? From cartoonist Erik Sansom’s “Shangri-La-De-Da Diet.”)
It has been an amazing experience. If you had told me I would lose fifty-five pounds and be ready to keep it up for another twenty, I’d have laughed.
I’m only about seven pounds from the weight class that I’d have been ready to kill for when I started. Instead, I look at that as inadequate. I’m competing in an old guys division in a weight classed sport, like lots of other guys in their fifties. It helps me keep motivated.
I got tired of the diet at about thrity pounds lost, but after a week or so, adjusted and just kept losing weight.
I’m now more interested in planning for maintenance and figuring out where that point is and what it will take. It has been great, and thanks to CalorieLab for all the information and encouragement.
Fifty-five pounds lost as of this morning’s weigh-in.
Hi,
I just finished reading the book.
Five days ago I started taking one tablespoon of ELOO first thing in the morning, and most mornings I do cardio for at least 30 minutes (burning 200 to 250 calories).
I have a healthy diet and take in approximately 1,500 calories daily. I am not overweight at 5 feet, 6 inches and 130 pounds, but I would like to lose 5 to 10 pounds.
I noticed that many of the bloggers above noticed an immediate decrease in their appetite. I have not yet noticed a decrease in my appetite or cravings for sugary treats. I was wondering if I should increase the amount of ELOO to two tablespoons? I am worried that increasing the amount to two tablespoons will add to my overall calorie consumption.
Will this diet work for individuals looking to lose a few additional pounds?
Stephanie,
If you read the article above, Dr. Roberts’s maintenance dose was about the equivalent of a tablespoon of oil or a bit more. For weight loss he used more, two or three tablespoons. Two or three tablespoons was the amount he mentioned in his interview with us.
However, in the book on page 56 he says one tablespoon each of sugar and water is appropriate if you want to lose less than 20 pounds. Most of the calories here would come from the oil. So it seems like you’re close to what he says in the book.
You could try doubling your dose and see what happens.
Obviously, at some point the calories from the oil would negate any benefit from loss of appetite. When you get up to around 20 or 25 tablespoons, even if you ate nothing besides the oil, you’d probably start to gain weight simply from the calories in the oil.
Another possibility, considering the theory behind the Shangri-La Diet, is that the diet “corrects” the set point, and in your case you are already at or below your proper weight. If you lost 10 or 15 pounds, you would be skirting the lower edge of a healthy BMI and be close to underweight.
The final possibility is that the diet doesn’t work, other than by suggestion or placebo effect, and you are among those who are immune to such effects.
Is it okay if I smoke a cigarette within an hour of doing the oil or sugar water? Is that okay? Does it have any effects on the diet?
I started the sugar water yesterday and had no appetite in the evening before bedtime, as I usually do. Today I drank it in the afternoon and found myself not eating as much at dinner as usual.
I’m trying not to think too much and second guess myself about whether it’s placebo or it actually works.
But here’s something that may help clarify the issue of how sugar water can be called tasteless. I’m a professional taste tester, and there are two kinds of taste. One kind includes the basic tastes that we can taste even if we hold our nose closed. Salty, sweet, sour and bitter. Plus metallic mouth feel and umami (from MSG, a kind of sodium).
The other flavors are aromatics, those that we cannot taste if we hold our nose. They include everything else not in the four basic tastes.
Try it. When you drink your sugar water, hold your nose closed and you can still taste the sweet. But if you hold your nose and take a drink of coffee, you will only taste bitter water, not the coffee flavors, even if you have milk in it. If you have sugar in it, you’ll taste bitter and sweet, but nothing else.
So it sounds to me like the requirement to have nothing with taste actually means nothing with an aromatic flavor.
Also, among the things that only have a basic taste and no aromatic flavors, sugar is the only one I can think of that has calories. Salt has no calories. Caffeine, which provides a bitter taste, has no calories. None of the sour acids I know about have any calories.
So it sounds like the requirement is to have calories without aromatic flavor, that’s why sugar water works. It has calories but only has a basic taste, not an aromatic.
It also makes me think it might be important, particularly as summer approaches, to keep the oil you use in a cool place and buy it in smallish quantities. Because oil goes bad easily, and as it starts to go bad it begins to have a slight aromatic off taste, even though it’s not usually noticeable to most people when it’s used in cooking. When it goes totally rancid it tastes like paint or turpentine or sometimes fish.
So if your oil ever tastes like a paint-related product or fish, it’s going bad, and the aromatic flavor might effect how well it works.
I’m looking forward to seeing how the technique works. I’m 51 years old, 240 pounds, and 6 feet and have fluctuated from 165 when I was 30 to a high of 250. I have yo-yoed a couple of times, but as soon as I stopped watching every mouthful I ate, it always came back plus a few pounds more.
Ringo,
Where do things like Sichuan pepper and sansho (the Zanthoxylums) fall in your taste scheme? They produce a weird, tingly, numbing effect, where it feels like your tongue is being electrocuted. Water tastes like it has lemon in it if you drink it after eating something with a lot of Sichuan pepper. Harold McGee says these spices contain relatives of capsaicin called the sanshools, which cause “neurological confusion.”
Miracle fruit also has odd effects on taste. With miracle fruit tablets going for $3.50 a tablet, if any of these substances can be rationalized as having a weight loss effect, there may yet be hope for food manufacturers hoping to cash in on the Shangri-La Diet.
CalorieLab, you’re correct there are many things that cause sensations on the tongue and in the mouth that aren’t strictly a basic taste or an aromatic flavor. Numbing, heat, cooling, and astringent are some of the most common sensations, sometimes called a mouthfeel.
In addition to the things you mention, there are also all the hot peppers and other spices, most of which have an aromatic component, but not necessarily.
I assume those things will work against Dr. Roberts’ plan, just as an aromatic flavor does, so I’m going to follow the directions carefully and see what happens.
Thanks for your question, CalorieLab. I was trying to simplify the subject and was not as complete as I should have been. But also, you clearly know your subject well. I’m not a food scientist, just a taster who can put it in my mouth and describe in detail what it tastes like and how intense the flavors are.
I heard about this diet on Dennis Prager the other day, while on lunch break. It sounds like it might work for me, so I’m going to give it a try, rather than the pills a co-worker is encouraging me to try.
As of now I am 44 years old, 245 pounds, 5 feet 7 inches. I am male and a non-smoker with Type 2 diabetes. I have obstructive sleep apnea. I had a stent put in my upper left coronary artery in October, 2003.
I really need to lose about 40 pounds and I don’t need any more pills! I try to exercise but because of some of the complications of diabetes it’s hard to walk as much as I should.
I’ll be starting tomorrow, so I’ll check back occasionally with updates.
The DataLounge gang are discussing the Shangri-La Diet, and coming up with some helpful advice:
Oh, I was just thinking about adding that! I visit DataLounge almost daily, and laughed when I read that comment.
I tried the sugar water yesterday. It’s too sweet for me. But it certainly keeps you away from snacking, since the sugar water made me feel a little bit sick in my stomach.
I’d advise not smoking during the “no flavor” zone. I know that chewing tobacco derails things.
Also, if you have only five to six pounds to lose, it can take up to 21 days for the effects to kick in. One poor lady gained three pounds while waiting, then lost it all the first week after the effects kicked in.
If you are at only five to six pounds, I’d suggest the lower doses of oil, not the higher ones.
I’m trying to lose fifteen pounds, and have been doing two tablespoons of canola oil morning and evening. I haven’t noticed much on the scale but my clothes feel looser.
Stephen, do you think I’m taking too high of a dose? I’ve actually gained one pound. I’ve been doing it since the ninth of this month.
After reading some more information on Seth’s website, I guess I fit into the category of not really needing to lose too much weight. I’m 5 feet 4 inches and 138 pounds. I read that it takes longer (sometimes two months) before you notice anything and it’s not unusual to gain one to three pounds in the beginning. Is this correct for people who aren’t overweight?
This whole thing seems utterly nuts to me.
If boredom is what is driving most people to snack on refined carbohydrates and transfatty crap, or to overeat, than do something, anything, to make your lives less boring.
Eating fewer calories and burning calories is what drives weight loss, but the quality of those calories matters. Eating more raw vegetables and low calorie fruits like berries, as well as nuts, seeds, high quality proteins and a minimal amount of refined foods will increase health and decrease weight.
Eliminating refined carbohydrates also eliminates cravings and controls one’s appetitite. It’s just that it’s hard to do in the beginning because it requires tremendous will.
Exercise in moderation is also important. Good lord, we’re all looking for a quick fix in North America, but what it boils down to is willpower and desire.
You read like someone who is close to their proper weight. The only other people I’ve read blogging in your shoes took two to three weeks before they had any results and gained one to three pounds before the diet kicked in for them.
As for “but what it boils down to is willpower and desire,” that is just neo-Calvinism and completely false. This is why diet and exercise fail so many people so completely. If it were true, yo-yo dieting would not be an issue.
I even managed to blog about this before I read that comment.
If anyone has questions, feel free to visit my blog at http://ethesis.blogspot.com/ and drop me a message. I just don’t visit here enough to catch questions.
Leslie:
Let me guess. You are at your ideal weight, exercise regularly, have no weight issues, and have tons and tons of willpower and desire. So why are you even bothering with this discussion?
As for the rest of us, it seems to be working — at least for many- – and quite painlessly and harmlessly. I fail to comprehend the need to berate us so.
I am down about seven pounds in less than a month, and my wife is down ten. We too find that we don’t feel the need to eat as much, want to drink more water (for me a good thing since I have been bothered with gout), and prefer more vegetables. Its almost as if we are more in tune with what our body really needs.
I’ve been doing this diet now for about a week. I am using the extra light virgin olive oil, and to me it really tastes good.
Doesn’t that mean it has taste? I am wondering if I need to do the canola or something else?
I think my hunger has curbed a bit, but not a lot. Maybe it’s because my tastebuds find olive oil tasty?
Thanks.
Avana,
Try something without the word “virgin” in it. Virgin olive oil comes from the first pressing, with no further processing. It’s probably impossible to get tasteless oil without more processing. In fact, some “extra light olive oil” is mixed with canola oil.
I’ve previously been on the Atkins diet three times. I would always lose a decent amount of weight, plateau forever, and then get the munchies for poison and regain my weight.
I picked up this book a week ago out of curiosity. I started the diet on Friday, May 19. I’m male, late 40s and sit in my office chair when I’m not sleeping at night. On Friday, I weighed 94 kilograms. Today, Wednesday, May 24, I’m at 91.5 kilograms. That’s over five pounds lost in six days.
On Friday and Saturday, I was combining oil (canola) and sugar water. As of Sunday, I switched to four tablespoons of oil a day and no sugar water. I take two spoonfulls between breakfast and lunch and two between lunch and supper.
My appettite has decreased remarkably. I cannot manage to eat the portion sizes I normally devour. My food cravings between meals are minimal and are satisified by a piece of fruit. I don’t think I could pig out if I tried.
I’m also eating everything. Some bread, salad, meat, fish, fruits and vegetables. I even treated myself to some M&Ms and ice cream yesterday, but that really stuffed me up.
I’ve always been a big tea and water drinker but feeling satiated makes me drink less, though still a healthy amount.
So far, so good. It seems like a diet I can live with forever.
Is this freaky or what?
I have a piggyback onto Alana’s question.
I am using canola oil, and although I try to shoot it to the back of my throat, I occasionally taste it and it tastes kind of nutty and almost good.
I just started the diet three days ago. I like the results so far, less hunger, easier to eat lightly, but I am wondering if there is any other oil that will work better. I didn’t choose the light olive oil because I love olive oil.
It’s becoming increasingly obvious that if the Shangri-La Diet really makes the big time, there will be a large market for officially sanctioned, “Dr. Seth” brand products such as oils and bottled sugar waters.
And at first it seemed so simple!
I am curious about this diet, but I still have a some questions about it.
I am 21 years old and 20 pounds overweight for my height (5 feet 2 inches). Does your body really start burning the stored body fat when you take sugar water or oil doses? It just seems that by suppressing the appetite, and thus eating less calories, your metabolism would be slowed down, which can cause the body to hold onto the stored fat.
Also, will I be able to build muscle on this diet? I’m wanting to get in shape, and I would like to work towards getting a six-pack, which I know involves a change in diet to lose the fat that’s hiding my abs. Is it possible to build muscle, lose your stored body fat, and get a six-pack using this diet when combined with strength training and cardio exercise?
anonymous,
I think the theory is that when you take tasteless calories, your caveman mind thinks you’re in times of food scarcity, and thus aims for a lower body weight in order to get by on less energy until the next mastodon is killed.
Mmmmmm … mastodon!
AA,
Don’t knock it. That’s what Raquel ate.
Can you substitute fish oil for the canola oil to benefit from the omega 3s?
Bob,
Wikipedia lists some other oils that have high Omega-3 fatty acids that might be closer to tasteless.
Some people are trying out Udos Choice Oil Blend
, which contains flax oil. It looks like the cost would be at least $50 a month, however, and it’s described as having a “pleasant, nutty, buttery taste.”
Is it possible to build muscle while on this diet?
I’m not an expert by any means, but I wouldn’t think building muscle is a problem. You’re just taking in some extra sugar or oil everyday.
It’s no different than adding any other food in small doses to your diet. I think a lot of people commenting might be missing the point of this “diet” — it’s simply intended to decrease your appetite by controlling your set point. Less appetite equals less food consumed equals less fat on your body. Plain and simple. I’m actually amazed at all the questions. But the one true question is, Does it work?
I started on sugar water just yesterday after hearing about this. I think it’s already working, but only a little. What I’ve noticed is that I don’t have cravings in between meals. However, I’m waiting to get that really full feeling I’ve seen described by others and Seth himself.
I would like this to make me want to eat less of my actual meal. So far, I still want to eat my whole meal.
Although I’m not scarfing down a lot of food, I never really do, unless I’m out to eat at a really great place. So, I’ll keep on with the sugar water and see if it helps me cut down at meal time. Still, the effect of no cravings between meals is already a benefit as I see it.
I also exercise regulary, including weight training, and I don’t feel any loss of energy or the ability to lift. Of course, it’s only the second day so I’ll let you know.
It’s only about 250 calories worth of sugar a day that I’m taking, so I can’t see how it would really make such a big difference, other than hopefully decreasing appetite.
We shall see.
Chris, I have been building muscle on the diet. So it is possible, since I’ve done it.
OK — just wanted anyone else with my question to know: Safeway regular salad oil (soybean) has pretty much zero taste.
Of course, it’s chemically extracted from probably genetically modified crops, so it isn’t going to add any healthy benefits, but at least I am following the diet to the best of my ability.
I have been attempting to use this diet with some success.
However, I have noticed that my appetite decreases throughout the day, but after I go to sleep at night I wake up starving and with an almost uncontrollable need for a snack.
I was wondering if you have any ideas on how to curb this. Sometimes I eat more in the middle of the night than I eat all day long.
This problem existed before I started this diet.
I guess I need to see a doctor about this. I thought maybe some of your readers had heard of such a thing.
Anyways I have lost five pounds over the past month, and yes, it does decrease your appetite drastically. I even consume less tea and coffee, opting for water instead.
Thanks,
Sandy
Sandy,
Nobody’s mentioned nighttime appetite. Just be glad you don’t have sleep eating disorder, where you gorge on food while sleepwalking.
I am 53 years old. I weight 225 pounds, and my height is 5 feet 11 inches.
I started trying this on May 5th. At first, I tried olive oil, then canola oil. After almost a month I have had no weight loss.
I tried sugar, but it gave me very bad headaches, so I stopped.
I really want to lose, but, I’m not having any luck so far. I read the book already. I’m very active. I ride a bike almost 100 miles a week, and still just seem stuck. I need help.
Dave
Dave,
Is your appetite reduced? How much are you eating?
I never really noticed any change, other then just trying not to eat as much. I have oatmeal for breakfast or other cereal. For lunch chicken salad. Dinner I eat light, a fruit smoothie or other fruit or vegetables.
I’ve been at this weight for almost a year, up or down no more then three to five pounds.
My doctor says that since I’m very active that he’s not worried about my weight. I ‘m wondering if medicatition has any effect on the results. I’ve had both a very mild heart attack an stroke three years ago. I now take blood pressure medications and also blood thinner plus Lipator for cholesterol.
Right now my blood pressure, cholesterol, and overall health is good. I just want to lose about 40 pounds so I can ride, be more comfortable, and get rid of my spare tire,
I think that any diet or other relation to the world that looks at nature as “other” is doomed.
When we eat local organic foods it is such a different relationship. We don’t see ourselves as somehow outside of the natural world, and we don’t want processed foods or sugar and oil.
When you are doing this, it is hostile, and nature is not something you can go up against and win. It is ourselves, and if we are not relating properly, then maybe we should examine that.
Would flaxseed oil work? It seems like you would get a double beneifit from it. How about splenda for the sugar water?
I am excited! I eat really good and exercise, but in the evening I start a snack thing that is out of control. Not really overweight but lots of fat cells.
Jan
Jan,
Flaxseed oil, maybe. Splenda, no.
You need to read or search the material above for more explanation.
I started the Shangri-La Diet two days ago in the afternoon. That day, I still felt hunger and was doubting the validity of this “diet.” However, yesterday (my first full day), I definitely felt my hunger suppressing, although i felt thirsty and craving something sweet. Anyone get that same feeling?
Well, today, it’s still going well. I had a small breakfast smoothie and there’s still no hunger after a couple of hours. Usually, I’d be starving and snacking.
Thanks.
It’s working great! I’m losing weight and feeling great!
Thanks Seth.
Anyone mix the oil and sugar? Does this work?
I thought I’d try the oil, but it really went down wrong. I don’t mind eating sugar mixed with oil. Is that bad because it’s a taste I don’t mind?
I also thought of making rock candy and just sucking on that.
Please forgive me if the question I’m about to ask has already been addressed. I thought I’d read something here on it, but after a return visit text search, found nothing.
So, the question: Is there any problem with using Sugar in the Raw (Premium Hawaiian Turbinado Sugar)? I tried some on day 1 and was unable to detect a taste other than sweetness. This is the only sugar we have in the office, and I wouldn’t mind pinching a few pennies if I can achieve the same result as with plain white sugar.
Thanks, everyone, for all the wonderful information posted here!
Coppertina,
This passage from sugarintheraw.com suggests that there is some flavor, but if you can’t taste it, go ahead and give it a try.
My sister-in-law mixes the sugar and the oil and the water and it works for her. She says it is a lot less gag-worthy.
I tried pouring the oil into my mouth and then pouring in ice water, do a quick swish, and swallow, and it went down so much better.
I’ve been taking the oil now for four full days now, one tablespoon two times a day and haven’t noticed any difference. I am still wanting to eat as often and as much as before. I’m trying to be patient.
I’m five feet six inches and about 145 or 150 pounds and would like to loose 10 to 20 pounds.
I read that I should only need to take one tablespoon, but it did nothing, so I increased it to two tablespoons.
Hi, Interesting article. I tried to download your summary, but it is no longer available. Can you repost a link to it? Thanks.
foobaz,
If you’re referring to commenter SFC’s summary, he/she deleted it, as explained in the comment following the comment where it was originally linked to.
I saw an article on this in the paper. I’m not sure how to start, really.
I’m a very big guy. Do you have any tips on what doses I should use? I’m six feet six inches, and I weight about 350 pounds.
My exercise is a 40-minute walk every day, and I’m going to start water-aerobics training next week.
Thanks in advance.
There’s a lot of information at the Seth Roberts/Shangri-La forums: http://boards.sethroberts.net
Also, buy the book. It’s $12 on Amazon and well worth it.
I saw a newspaper article yesterday and also found this board yesterday. I purchased the book from Amazon so this board has been helpful for me (since the book hasn’t arrived yet).
I also purchased ELOO and canola oil and had my first dose this morning. Ick. I even used the pouring it down my throat trick, but it was still gross. I am pretty sensitive to sugar (trigger food for me) so I figured that oil is the best option for me. But if it works, I am willing to try anything.
My question is: does anyone think that brushing my teeth with toothpaste (it has taste even though I didn’t swallow it) within the hour after the oil dose will throw me off? I think so, but I realized it after I brushed my teeth.
Thanks for any information/suggestions/help.
Tom,
Yes, the minty fresh taste of the toothpaste is definitely something that will probably interfere with the diet. You should not use toothpaste an hour before or after taking the oil or sugar water.
On a closely related note, however, I was on a trip last weekend and forgot my toothpaste. Instead, I used a paste of baking soda and water. I wonder if this would be O.K. to use for toothbrushing right after taking oil/sugar water. The main taste of baking soda seems to be salty. It would be be nice to take sugar water at night and not have to wait an hour to brush my teeth and go to bed. Anyone have an opinion on brushing teeth with homemade baking soda paste?
Coppertina,
Brushing your teeth with paste is mostly for temporary masking of your breath smell and helping you “feel fresh and confident,” not for protecting your teeth from decay.
Just brush with water. If you’re really worried about taste, don’t brush at all and wait until the morning. Tooth decay is not caused by sugar, but rather by the bacteria that feed on sugar. They take a good 24 hours or so to really develop in numbers, so brushing really well one time a day is enough, simply from a tooth decay standpoint.
The other cause of tooth decay is acid, such as from soft drinks. This is much faster than bacteria, pretty much doing its damage in the first twenty minutes, before the acid dilutes. So if you drink a Coke and don’t brush your teeth for twenty minutes, there’s no particular reason to even bother brushing after that.
CalorieLab,
Thanks. I do realize all that. Admittedly, it’s fresh breath I’m interested in on top of healthy teeth (I brush & floss regularly). I don’t know that just brushing with water would do it for me.
I started the diet on May 12th. I have lost 12 pounds so far — love the diet. I take 1 tablespoon of ELOO twice a day. I have not tried the sugar water yet.
I’m wondering if I could expect the same results if I took one of the tablespoons of ELOO on my nightly trek to the bathroom in the middle of the night?
Lee,
Better yet, why not try taking a double dose in the middle of the night, and eliminating your daytime doses. If it works for you, all the hassles of keeping time of your doses and eating will be eliminated.
Wouldn’t that be great! Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll try it and see what happens.
I tried fructose in cold water yesterday. I drank it slowly, but it just made me hungrier.
Sugar is a trigger food for me, so I thought it might happen, but I did want to try it because the oil is so hard for me to swallow. It definitely tasted much better than the oil! After the oil, however, I don’t feel like eating.
If fructose works for you, you can buy it in bulk at WinCo supermarkets (I think they are only on the West Coast of America). I think it’s $0.77 a pound, very reasonably priced.
TK,
There really shouldn’t be any difference in how sugar and oil work, so you seem like a counterexample to the theory.
I’m on day 3 of the diet and am having some success. What I’m most interested in hearing about is information relating to folks who have had angioplasty and stents inserted.
I had a scare with a blocked artery and had the above two procedures done a little over a year ago. SInce then, I’ve lost about 20 pounds, mostly following South Beach (not super-srtictly) and being more consistent with exercise. I play full court basketball twice a week, and ride my mountain bike. I also use an eliptical trainer that I bought used on Craigslist.
I’m taking Vitoryn (statin combo) as well as fish oil and a beta blocker. All my numbers are good (total cholesterol is approx 125, good ratios, low tryglicerides, pretty good hdl/ldl ratio).
Mostly, I want to lose that last 15-20 pounds I’ve never been able to shake. but I’m also concerned about effects of the oil method of this plan.
Oh yeah, I’m 44 year old male, 5 feet 6 inches and about 184 pounds as of this morning. I’m built stocky though, so I will be elated if I can get to 170 pounds.
Thoughts?
O.K., I feel I have been patient, but I’m gaining a little weight from this diet and haven’t noticed my clothes fitting differently. I’ve been on it since May 5, 2006.
I started off with two tablespoons every morning and night but thought I should reduce it to one tablespoon. I’ve been doing the one tablespoon since May 28.
I’m jealous of all the easy success everyone else is having. I know it takes sometimes two months for it to work on people, so I’ll give it a total of two months. But if it’s still the same by July 28, I’m done.
I forgot to add that I do notice some appetite suppression, but when I am hungry I eat whatever I want, since the diet says you don’t have to change anything else except taking your doses.
I’m curious, for those you have had success, are you monitoring what you eat? Are you trying to avoid fried foods, carbs, chocolate? Are you trying to eat balanced, healthy meals. I’m not and maybe that’s my problem.
PD,
Did you read the footnotes?:
PD,
You will definitely have to try and watch what you eat. Also, did you decrease to just one tablespoon of oil for the whole entire day? I think you’d need at least two tablespoons a day, one earlier and one a little later. You should also check to make sure you are not using virgin olive oil, which has some flavor.
I’ve done this diet on and off for a few weeks (I know it would work better if I did it consistently), and have noticed it working. However, it will not always make you turn away from the fatty foods that you love.
For me, it prevents those crazy, unnecessary snack binges that I don’t need. But as far as meals? That’s all in the choices I make. If I’m hungry, I’m hungry.
This diet suppresses appetite, not hunger. So, if you’re hungry and you go out and get a bucket of KFC, you’ll eat the greasy stuff, and it’s not really going to help with weight loss. Maybe you’ll eat less of it, and not binge on cookies from your cabinet for no reason afterward, but you’ll still eat fatty chicken because you are hungry and you enjoy the taste, and because that is what you brought home from the drive-thru.
In short, you have to watch what you eat, but you’ll see that you’re not just snacking for the hell of it between meals and will know when to say “when.”
Mandy:
Thanks, that clears up many things. Reading other people’s experiences, it sounded like their cravings actually changed, and it was no effort at all to eat the right things.
I was wondering what was wrong with me since I still wanted Burger King’s super size value meal and lots of chocolate.
I guess the point of the diet is that it takes the edge off of dieting but doesn’t make it a piece of cake.
TK, try putting the oil in some water, 3 or 4 ounces. It’s much easier to take that way!
I am finding that taking two tablespoons of ELOO during my nightly trek to the bathroom is working very well!
I’m also waking up my husband and giving him the ELOO as well now. He’s lost two pounds in the first few days since starting it. He originally laughed at the Shangri-La Diet when I started it in May, but he has since decided it’s worth a try, since his wife is effortlessly losing weight, at long last.
If I find I’m hungryish in the afternoon, I’ll take another tablespoon and that tides me through the evening.
I’m also noticing that my blood pressure has gone down. I have lost 14 to 16 pounds since May 12th. I also find that I look for healthy things now, like apples and water, instead of Diet Coke and a chocolate bar.
Anyway, thank you, Seth, for thinking outside the box! This really is a bypass in bottle — an olive oil bottle!
Lee
Could you substitute Stevia for sugar? Or does Stevia have too few calories.
konrad,
We answer that here.
I am 138.3 pounds today. I have been on the diet for three weeks now. I’m 5 feet tall and 44 years young.
I was 127 pounds last June, but marathon training since December has increased my weight. Now I’m trying to get it off. I’m taking 1-1/2 tablespoons of canola oil and 2 teaspoons of sugar divided in half, twice a day, at 10:30 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. I eat approximately 1,300 calories per day, including the oil and sugar water.
I have not lost anything. My desire for food has dropped substantially, and my cravings for sweets have all but disappeared.
I am thrilled not to be controlled by food, but I am wondering when the weight will start to drop off.
Helen,
Try doubling the amount of oil, and get rid of the sugar, which in the small amount that you’re taking is not contributing significant calories.
Most marathoners are skinny. Why did you gain weight?
If all of you would read the book, many of you’re questions would be answered.
About the sweet taste of sugar he says, “[S]weetness is a kind of ‘invisible’ flavor that does not become associated with calories.”
Also he says, “The amount of water in which you dissolve the sugar will not affect the power of the sugar to reduce your weight. You can suck on sugar cubes and get the same effect. However, the more slowly you consume the sugar, the better.”
This is a huge thread, and a great one.
Stephen,
Unfortunately, blog comments were not really meant for this kind of a thread. I pity the people without broadband who are just trying to read the basic post!
I’m a male, 5 feet 8 inches, 185 pounds. I tried this diet for four weeks using ELOO twice a day. Results: I gained five pounds without altering my diet/exercise.
For those who are experiencing success, I wonder if it’s their improved diet and execise that contributing to their weight loss, whereas the ELOO and sugar is the placebo.
Question: My sister is diabetic. Would it work if we do perhaps three tablespoons of ELOO and skip the sugar. I was thinking Morning, afternoon, and night. We both need to loose weight badly. I did buy the book.
Your reply will be appreciated. Thank you.
Miriann,
Just oil is fine. You can do it twice a day rather than three times for three or four tablespoons in all, although doing it three times a day would have the advantage of preventing you from eating for six hours in the day!
Well, I tried taking all my ELOO during my nightly trek to the bathroom, as suggested. But I found that I gained back a good five pounds. So much for convenience!
It’s back to the original game plan.
What would really help is some way to package the ELOO into individual portions. It would make it much easier for both my husband and I to take it at work during the day. Has anyone found a way to do this, or who sells something that might do the trick?
I was wondering if anyone has anything to say about smoking during the two hours. I read somewhere that smoking could interfere with the effect, but the book doesn’t mention smoking at all.
I have had great success on this diet. The oil takes away hunger and cravings and makes it possible for me to eat one reasonable meal a day and fruit as a snack. Weight loss has been slow but steady.
I have never dieted before (but need to!) Shangri La requires very little willpower. however, I smoke and have been not smoking while on the two hours of abstainance. Being able to smoke a cigarette would make it that much easier for me.
Interesting. I found that night time oil was just a great deal less effective. For some people it is a major breakthrough. For me, it had a positive effect for about half a week, and then began to fade.
Interesting.
If middle-of-the-night oil is not working, it would seem to be evidence that Dr. Roberts’s explanation of why the diet works is incorrect. Looking strictly at his evolutionary, calorie-taste association theory, the time you take it wouldn’t seem to make a difference. The main difference between middle-of-the-night oil and daytime oil is that with daytime oil a no-midmorning-snacks, no-midafternoon-snacks rule is incidentally enforced.
Yes, except that nighttime oil works so very well for many people.
For me it kind of worked, but not enough, if that makes any sense. I had appetite reduction, but I was back up to 2,200 calories a day. Without any oil I shoot up to 5,500 calories a day. With nighttime oil, I go to 2,200 calories (which moves my static weight to about 190 pounds — but I don’t want maintenance at 190, I want to plateau at 160.2).
If I take it in the daytime, I’m closer to 1,600 calories a day.
However, on the first day with nighttime oil I only felt like eating 1,200 calories. I thought I’d found the promised land. But the amount I felt like eating slowly went up until I’d gained weight back to 179 pounds.
Taking the oil at 10:00 a.m. or so is during a time I usually don’t eat anyway. I’m only taking oil one time during the day, but that works for me to change how much I feel like eating.
We need a much larger sample size to get a better picture of what is going on, preferably with blood work done 2 or 3 times a day.
Your experience with night time oil sounds very similar to mine, Stephen. I seem to lose quickly and easily if I do the diet as described in the book. If I only take the oil in the morning, I’m hungry at night. Then I’m also hungry the next morning. If I take the oil once during the night, it works for a day or two, and then I’m gaining again, so I must be ingesting more calories.
The first week I was on it, I also was walking with my husband in the early morning, and the weight seemed to fall off. So, I’m back to one tablespoon in the morning, and one later on in the afternoon, say 3 or so, and walking. The oil at night seemed to work the same for my husband and daughter as it did for me.
The appetite suppression seems to have a life expectancy of a few hours, so for us, during the day when we really needed it, it had been metabolized and wasn’t staving off our appetites.
Oh well, the diet as described in the book definitely works for me. I just wish I could find some container to store each serving of oil in. The spray bottle I’m using makes me wonder if I appear to be having a swig of whiskey!
Lee
I started this diet three weeks ago and have lost six pounds. I’m doing oil only, Canola oil, because I’m allergic to olives and can’t drink olive oil. I have blood sugar issues so I can’t do the sugar water.
I find I get hungry, but I eat half as much. I doubt it is a placebo effect, as someone suggested, because I think about food all the time whenever I diet and usually end up being hungrier than when I don’t diet.
I think about food a lot now, too, because I have to be cognizant of when I eat so I can take the oil at the appropriate time.
Since my problem has always been not what I eat (I eat a very healthy diet) but how much I eat, this diet is perfect for me. I’m confident I can lose those last 15 pounds. I haven’t been able to lose since I gained a bunch of weight when I quit smoking.
I have to say, I’m quite dubious about the “science” behind this diet, but it worked for a friend, so I tried it, and it is apparently working for me, however it works. I like that I can eat what I want, but just eat smaller portions because I get full faster.
As for the set-point theory, set-point can be changed over time, so it’s not unlikely that this diet will do that, but a lot of diets would do the same thing.
I’m quite happy I heard about this diet, and hope for continued good progress.
Hi! I’ve just heard of this diet plan. I can’t get the book yet in my country (not even by Amazon, at least for now).
I’m 54 kilograms (about 120 pounds) and 172 centimeters (about 5 feet 7 inches). I know I don’t need to loose weight, but I have a very strong appetite, and I want to start controlling it. I’m getting married in 3 months, and I would like to lose 7 pounds by then.
How many calories of sugar water or ELOO should I take? Is it 150 calories or more?
I’ll be grateful for your response.
Yuli,
Yes, in his book Dr. Roberts recommends about 150 calories (1 tablespoon oil or maybe add a teaspoon to that) for people who have less than 20 pounds to lose.
I started on this diet about two months ago. For the first three weeks it was amazing, and I lost about eight pounds.
I was only using canola oil for the first month. I decided to switched to sugar water in the morning since it was a bit easier to take at work, but soon found I was really hungry again, especially in the evening. As expected the weight loss stopped.
I then went back to canola oil, one and a half tablespoons in the morning, and the same in late afternoon. Although I believed my appetite has again declined, the weight loss has stopped. It just is not working anymore.
I have way more than just 20 pounds to lose, and I have followed the directions just like I did in the beginning. I am a 45-year-old female. Has anyone had the same thing happen and know how to get the weight loss started again?
Thanks for your help.
Kelly: Try different oils. I started with extra-light olive oil as Seth recommends in the book and have since tried canola and walnut oil. The canola made me tired and sluggish. Actually, I was getting tired and sluggish but had no idea why, but decided to stop using canola when I saw other people on the Shangri-La forums reporting sluggishness from canola.
I’m using walnut oil now with much better results. Others have used rice bran oil, grapeseed oil and refined coconut oil with success. Some coconut oils are not flavorless enough to work, but some are.
I found grapeseed oil at three of the four major grocery chains in the Seattle area, walnut oil at one, and refined coconut oil in the organic section of one other. Whole Foods has most of them, I think, and Wild Oats should also have a good selection, if you have either of those stores around and can’t find the oils in a regular grocery. I haven’t found rice bran oil in a grocery store. Health food and nutrition stores should also have some of these oils, and you can of course mail-order them too.
I highly recommend you come over to the Shangri-La forums at boards.sethroberts.net; there are a lot of people experimenting with various things and sharing what is working for them. It’s pretty amazing what people will try — and what works!
I have just started this diet today, and I’m really hoping to lose about 50 pounds.
I’ve tried so many diets and end up feeling deprived. I think that this may be the answer to my prayers.
I’m having some problems with swallowing the ELOO — it really gags me. Has anyone overcome this with success? In time, does the oil eventually not gag you?
I’m so happy to see so much success on this, and congratulations to everyone winning the battle on losing weight!
Thanks for your advice Jerry. I’m on my way over to sethroberts.net to get some more ideas. I think I’m going to try walnut oil if I can find it. I’m just north of you in Vancouver, B.C., which, although not far in distance, is a world away in terms of what is available on the grocery store shelves.
Thanks again for your help.
Kelly
Just checking back. I’ve lost about seventy pounds, about half the time I’m on plateaus where I’m not losing weight.
Hi. I’m just starting this “diet.”
Here are my issues: I gag when taking the oil and don’t want to take the oil, and the sugar water makes me feel nauseous about 45 minutes after I drink it. Anyone else have that happen? And I have a headache.
I’m just about to try this.
Stephen, it looks like you’ve lost tons of weight! Bravo! I wasn’t able to read all the hundreds of posts here, but I read most of them. So sorry if these questions were already answered: How does this suppression affect your metabolism? Doesn’t your body metabolism slow down with weight loss?
And you’re talking about using only white, refined sugar, not brown sugar?
[...] This reminds me of the Shangri-La diet created by a rat psychologist at berkeley. The idea is the same. You consume some flavorless calories as far from meals as possible to break the connection between consuming calories and having a pleasurable taste sensation experience. From what I’ve read, it works. [...]
Another question: Anyone have any success stories or experiences using coconut oil? In Asia it’s believed to help weight loss. Can this be used as an SLD oil?
Thanks.
Hi, I am new at this. It’s the first time I am reading about the Shangri-La Diet, but it looks O.K. to me.
I just want to make sure that I am taking the oil in the right way. I am planning to take 1 tablespoon of extra olive oil right after I wake up, so after one hour I can eat breakfast, and another tablespoon of oil arround two hours before my dinner.
If that is O.K. and will help me to loose weight, it will be incredible! I am 30 pounds overweight.
Thanks for your reply,
Adriana,
You need to wait two hours before eating, not one hour. And the oil should be extra light olive oil, not extra virgin olive oil.
Your directions are wrong. I have the book, and it is no eating for one hour before you take the oil or water, and no eating one hour after.
Also, not eating means no flavor of any kind — no gum, no flavored drinks, no brushing your teeth, etc., for an hour.
I have a question. Can you please tell me, if I wake up at 6:30, can I have my first oil at 6:30 and have breakfast at 8:30? Or should it be 8:00?
Also if I have not had anything from 1:00 to 2:00, can I have my second oil at 2:00, and then have something at 3:00, or is it 4:00?
I am 150 pounds and 5 feet 2 inches.
How much sugar should I put in 24 oz water? Does it depend on how much you weight, or is it the same for everyone?
Please respond. Thank you Calorielab, for all your help.
Niki,
The commenter prior to you was right: it’s one hour each side of the oil, according to Dr. Roberts. So you can wake up at 6:30 a.m. and drink the oil, then eat at 7:30 a.m. Then you can take the second dose at 2:00 p.m. if you do not eat from 1:00 p.m. to 3 p.m.
The total daily dose of oil or water should be in the range of 200 to 400 calories’ worth. You can take just oil or just sugar if you wish. Oil is about 120 calories per tablespoon and sugar about 50 calories per tablespoon. So two or three tablespoons of oil a day or a total of 4 to 8 tablespoons of sugar a day, divided up into however many doeses you take.
As for whether to take more or less oil (or sugar), just experiment. If it doesn’t work at one dose, try another. If it doesn’t work at the second dose, the system may not be working for you.
Help!
I started the Shangri-La Diet four days ago. I was eating huge amounts of food before, but now I’m eating less and gaining weight! What do I do?
I’m using oil twice a day.
I’m a female. My starting weight was 162 pounds, and now I’m 164 pounds. I have about 30 pounds to lose.
I hear a lot from the men. Are women really losing a lot of weight?
joel,
Maybe you should give it a couple of weeks before deciding if it’s working or not for you.
I am new to this plan and after 6 days have lost three pounds! I started a blog from day one to document my stats daily (www.Shangri-la-diet-stats.blogspot.com).
It is truely a prayer answered. A big thank you to Dr. Roberts.
I’m 45 years old and have 6 kids. My body is going through the change, and it seemed like nothing I did helped lose the extra pounds.
I take ELOO twice a day and my hunger is gone. When I do eat, I can stop without finishing what’s there. That alone is amazing.
This is something I can easily do the rest of my life.
Thanks again.
Well, I’m going to try it. I have a big problem with the oil though. After hearing all my life that oil is bad — high in fat — I usually try to avoid it as much as possible.
I have low blood sugar, so I am trying to sip sugar water (two to three tablespoons in a large glass of warm water). I hope my blood sugar doesn’t spike and then drop. That makes me binge!
I only want to lose about 10 pounds. We’ll see what happens!
Tonya,
Olive oil is virtually pure fat, but it’s the good, healthy kind. You need fat in your diet.
The only thing bad about oil is that it’s high in calories, more than twice the calories per unit weight than carbohydrates and protein. But that doesn’t matter here, because the point is to give your body about 250 to 450 extra, tasteless calories per day, at a strategic time.
Whether you use sugar or oil, the number of calories needs to be the same. The dose would be two or three tablespoons of oil, or five to nine tablespoons of sugar a day.
I read through all of the comments on this page and have not found the answer to a couple of questions I have, so I will go ahead and ask them.
How long does it take to know if the Shangri-La Diet is working? I have been doing the oil regimen for 3 days but have not lost any weight. Should I continue for one more week and then stop if nothing happens?
Also, is it O.K. to drink water after taking the oil?
Thank you.
Natalia,
In the early days of the diet, a year ago, the conventional wisdom was that it kicked in almost instantly. Now that more and more people are doing it, and it isn’t working for some of them, it seems like many of the diet’s supporters are saying that it may take several weeks or a couple months to start working.
The test of the diet is not really whether you’re losing weight. Over only a few days, the scale may show no weight loss no matter what diet you’re on. The test of the Shangri-La Diet is whether your appetite has disappeared. If you’re still interested in food and always want to eat, it isn’t working as advertised.
As for water, yes, it’s not just O.K. to drink water after the oil, but you can even mix the oil into the water and drink it together if that makes it easier for you. This was an idea that the diet’s supporters came up with after the book was published.
If this “diet” makes you lose your appetite, then wouldn’t you eventually go into starvation mode? If you don’t take in enought calories you’ll only end up storing fat. I hear, over and over again, that you should never go below 1,200 a day. It seems like this diet’would actually make you go below the healthy amount and in turn slow your metabalism.
Diffy,
Yes, you probably don’t want to eat less than 1,200 calories a day, since it would be very difficult and make proper nutrition hard to achieve. But I think if you ever feel that the Shangri-La Diet has destroyed your appetite to that extent, you could just stop drinking oil.
The hypothesis of a “starvation mode” is considered an urban legend by the mainstream medical community, although it gets a lot of propagation in internet diet and fat acceptance web sites. I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you. There are medically supervised ultra-low calorie programs which rely on meal replacement shakes that work very well, and they don’t trigger a “starvation mode” — what they trigger is weight loss.
Although there is scattered support for the idea of very small metabolic changes in response to dieting, the changes are too small to be of practical concern (or use) to dieters. It’s another example of a small kernel of truth being disconnected from its quantitative evidence and being exagerated into something that isn’t true.
I’m 16 years old, 5 feet 2 inches, and my weight ranges from 120 to 130 pounds. Can someone please tell me how much sugar I should take, and the ratio of sugar to water, if i want to get down to 110 pounds? I don’t want to take the wrong amount. Thanks.
I drank about half a liter of the sugar water, which had the same concentration of Dr. Roberts’ dose. I felt extremely hungry by the time I had waited for an hour to eat something.
Can someone tell me how I can prevent this? Will drinking the sugar water slowly help? Or is there a medical condition associated with this?
Louise, that sounds like a mild hypoglycemic reaction, or blood sugar rise and crash.
For those with this reaction, I’d recommend using the oil method rather than the sugar method.
Ditto for diabetics, an exaggerated response to sugar ingestion is counterproductive.
Thanks for your help, Jude. I’ll probably try the oil.
Can someone tell me if this only works with white sugar and not brown? Thanks.
I still don’t understand something: Does it matter if you take the sugar in cold water?
Couldn’t you just take sugar without the water?
You have a choice of drinking sugar water or drinking oil. You should drink sugar water or the oil, twice a day. People have chosen different times to drink. Some people drink before meals and some drink after.
There isn’t a right or wrong way.
After stumbling upon this “diet” in a bookstore, I went online and availed myself of all the Shangri La info out there.
Having a lot of family members and friends asking me all the time what they should do to lose weight, I’ve always been keeping an eye out for the “thing” that would work.
So I started it — without a weight loss goal in mind — about one week ago. Busy and always on the go, I went for the oil method (plus I thought it less diabetes inducing), got some empty film canisters and filled them with single servings and placed them into Ziploc baggies.
I’m only 120 pounds so I did just two doses daily of 2 teaspoons almond oil per day (mid afternoon and late evening).
I can say I do feel much more at ease with my eating habits than ever before. I still eat what I want (including rum balls and peanut butter and ice cream), but I feel more in control now. A self-proclaimed chocoholic and sugar addict, sweets would call out to me at all hours and 3 a.m. nighttime “treats” were a must. I now sleep much better as I don’t wake up halfway through the night looking for something to fill the void.
Should these results sustain themselves through the holiday season — I can think of no greater test to Seth Roberts theory than my pushy European family’s feasting ways — I will report back and share this discovery with anyone who gives a damn.
Tania: I seem to recall that Kodak recommended against using film cannisters for holding food or medicine, particularly liquids.
I have been reading the comments on this site and trying to decide if it will work. Anyway, a comment was made about using film canisters for holding food or medicine.
I am sure that Kodak would never recommend using them because it would amount to an endorsement and cause legal issues; better to forbid than to bless.
In any case, here is product for converting the film canisters to make salt and pepper shakers out of them. I would expect that this manufacturer would disagree about the safety issue. “Coghlan’s Film Canister Shaker Lids” can be found in Google.
In any case this is an interesting discussion, and if I try it, I will report back.
I have noticed that the smell of food has an associative effect the same as a oral taste would have during the hour needed after taking the oil or sugar dose.
I have avoided cooking or being in the kidtchen where food smells are noticable. Has anyone else had this insight?
I am so totally amazed at the thought of using simple sugar water to lose weight. It’s such a simple plan. I intend to try it, as I am 42 and weigh 210 pounds at only 5 feet 2 inches.
Lately I’ve been researching lap band, and went so far as to have it scheduled, only to chicken out. I continue to pack on weight, so I had made up my mind to conquer my fear and have the surgery. But while trying once again to gather as much information as possible before rescheduling surgery I came across this website. If only it will work, what a blessing. as I truly don’t want to go the surgery route, but I am desperate, as I seem to have asthmatic symptoms as of late.
I will give it a serious try.
I tried this with canola oil today, and it was disgusting. I would not recommend this type of oil. I felt sick for several hours.
Dr. Roberts’ book recommends extra light olive oil, so if you want to try this diet I would use that.
Has anyone else gotten a sick feeling, or was this just me?
Also, his book emphasizes the fact that if you use the sugar water method, you must drink it over a 30 minute time period per eight ounces of water. If you drink it all at once it doesn’t work, I’m not sure why.
Mr./Ms. Comment,
I don’t think that Dr. Roberts thinks that chugalugging all the sugar water at one time reduces the effectiveness of his diet — in fact, as I understand it, drinking it all at once would be more effective under his theory.
I think that he is only recommnending spacing out the drinking of the water to respond to pe